'In my opinion Mr. Finicum was murdered,' says Nevada Assemblyman John Moore

a reply to: Sublimecraft

Nope it's not body cam footage, I posted the link in another thread but it's from a news crew at the first stop. Not sure who the original source is for that footage but it was on the BBC website.

If they're saying there's no bodycam footage I can't see them allowing the press to get hold of any

a reply to: Discotech

If they're saying there's no bodycam footage I can't see them allowing the press to get hold of any

Are they saying there is no bodycam footage?

well thats a nice opinion but everyone has one, the video shows him running, getting out of his car and reaching for his jacket where he had a gun.

for some reason people think this is acceptable behavior that does not justify a cop having to fire his weapon. smart people know to follow officer orders and stay still so they dont get shot. considering it takes about a second to pull a gun and shoot it, he should have known better than to taunt the cops then run and reach for his jacket pocket.

that is unless he wanted to be martyred, which is a strong possibility judging from the last protester livestream.

a reply to: Majic

That's interesting to note. Shawna Cox sort of recants her statement that Mr. Finicum was armed in this interview that she gave on Jan. 31st. If you move to about the 16:00 mark, that's where it comes up. She's really pretty wishy washy here. She says here that she really doesn't know if he had a gun or not, but she didn't think he had a gun. She then goes on to say that he never took guns to meetings, though there probably were firearms in the vehicle. She also says it didn't make sense for him to exit and move away from the vehicle before engaging the cops, and that she thought it was murder.

Shawna Cox Video Interview - Witness to the Killing of Lavoy Finicum - 31Jan2016

I think it's important to note that he did not have a gun in his hand when he was shot to death. Sure he dropped his hands, made a motion that could have been a reach right before he was dropped. Still didn't have a gun in his hand. Why he dropped his hands or whether he was reaching for a gun has already been argued to death in various threads, so I don't really care to go there with it.

I think it's also interesting to note that Mr. Finicum had a legal argument for the reason that he was refusing to pay grazing fees, whereas Bundy did not as far as I know. It was to the effect that he had a claim that predated the grazing laws. I don't know that it would have stood up in court, but he had one. Of course he'll never get to have his day in court because he's dead now.

Anyway, looks like this ex Army Ranger/state assemblyman also thinks it was murder.

In my opinion the design and method of implementation of that 'enforcement action' implicates either murder or piss poor planning. I think either way, the authorities screwed up here. They should have handled these guys as gently as newborn babes. We don't know what the fallout from this whole deal will be. Could be nothing, could be major.

It's disgusting to me reading over the comments on oregonlive website, regarding the article(s) about her coming to Oregon to negotiate with the remaining holdouts. People can be so asinine. I feel like an alien, like I don't belong. Every comment almost--I'm being fair--is about how stupid and retarded the protesters were and how everybody connected to it are yahoos. This overriding and common viewpoint somehow enables all the commenters to say the worst vilest thing about others, including the two people linked by the OP: Michele Fiore and John Moore. I know these aren't perfect people, but I just lost some faith in the human race (as well as myself) after looking at the comments. it seems you can't win in this country without towing hte line and doing exactly what you're told. If you deviate even slightly you become minority status and immediately everyone comes onto you like hungry dogs--exposing their true nature. And THAT'S what bothers me. Our true nature is to be animals.

Don't become a minority or attain minority status. That's the message I'm getting. Be like everybody else. Don't rock the boat.

EDIT: I'm not saying I agree with the Bundy's. The refuge is taxpayer land and they did more than just squat, I believe. I think they broke into the buildings and even used the vehicles. The public didn't feel safe going there. The taxpayers pay for it, so they should be able to go there and feel safe. The workers couldn't go there either. The protesters should have stayed legally on private land and protested from there. Also Finicum acted irresponsibly on the day he died. I'm sorry but you have to listen to officers and respect them and he did not. I could go on.

woops

a reply to: Boadicea

Yeah, GaJo's cool, I'd imagine he'll weigh in on it eventually. He's probably just waiting until he's formed a good response to weigh in.

a reply to: jonnywhite

Don't let the mob get you down, jonnywhite. I've noticed that trend as well, like the popular social media sites just whip up the mob. The format of those sites doesn't seem to lend well to rational discussion, either. It's like they make us stupid or something. Then the stupid just spills out of there on to every comment section on the web. Everybody just wants to go along with the herd and pile on. It is disgusting. Seems to spill over into here as well.

I'd guess the upshot is you'd better have your ducks in a row if you're going to stick your head up and make some waves. Even so, the media will likely just latch on to any little flaw and blow it out of proportion to cut you down, if your cause doesn't qualify for their endorsement.

'Don't become a minority'...hehe...uh-oh...I'm screwed.

Don't forget that the last 4 standing said on the
Live Feed that Fiinicum was unarmed going to the
meeting & that ALL his guns were right there with
them.
So will be interesting to see what happens if true.

Cheers
Ektar

originally posted by: tweetie
a reply to: TheBadCabbie

We've seen over and over in this country where military war tactics are being used in non-war scenarios inside the U.S. I can remember reading about many veterans of the Afghanistan and Iraq wars returning to the U.S. and joining police forces across the country. Their deeply-embedded training is geared for war. Every domestic situation becomes a war scenario.

The militarization of our police forces and the increasing frequency with which heavy handed tactics are utilized has me deeply concerned as well.

a reply to: PublicOpinion

'We don't arm up and rebel'(here let me finish your sentence for you sheriff), we march off to prison after getting railroaded by the BLM and DOJ on bunk charges. 'We go through the appropriate channels', so that our appeals can be denied through those appropriate channels. Good grief!

I honestly think the method of protest here was foolish, though I have defended their cause because it was a just one. I also sympathise with the Hammonds. They were out of line on many occasions. It seems, however, that instead of even handed justice, they have received a sort of skewed grudgey heavy handed not really brand of justice.

a reply to: Phage

Yep I can't find the video I watched but it was either the FBI or Sheriff ward responding to a question about bodycam footage where he said along the lines "The footage we gave you was the only the footage there is, the troopers weren't wearing bodycams so we don't have any other footage"

LaVoy Finicum post-funeral fundraiser - Jordan Page live - "Cowboy's Stand For Freedom" (ballad)

We have more information here on ATS.

a reply to: Ektar

Yes. The problem being Sandy stated they locked all of the weapons they had in their vehicle before surrendering and there's no way law enforcement would leave them there. I have to wonder if perhaps they hid LaVoy's weapons before they left in the hopes that someone not law enforcement would be able to recover them at some future date. His weapons are key.

originally posted by: tweetie
a reply to: TheBadCabbie

We've seen over and over in this country where military war tactics are being used in non-war scenarios inside the U.S. I can remember reading about many veterans of the Afghanistan and Iraq wars returning to the U.S. and joining police forces across the country. Their deeply-embedded training is geared for war. Every domestic situation becomes a war scenario.

This is nonsense the rules of engagement for military professionals are far more strict than they are for police officers.

If anything they would show me restraint.

Provide me a few examples of police officers who are former marines shooting people for fun.

I don't think you'll find many.

originally posted by: onequestion

originally posted by: tweetie
a reply to: TheBadCabbie

We've seen over and over in this country where military war tactics are being used in non-war scenarios inside the U.S. I can remember reading about many veterans of the Afghanistan and Iraq wars returning to the U.S. and joining police forces across the country. Their deeply-embedded training is geared for war. Every domestic situation becomes a war scenario.

This is nonsense the rules of engagement for military professionals are far more strict than they are for police officers.

If anything they would show me restraint.

Provide me a few examples of police officers who are former marines shooting people for fun.

I don't think you'll find many.

You actually raise a good point. You've got me backing off of my easy agreement with tweetie earlier. I think you make a good point in that the vets are usually going to be more reluctant to pull the trigger on an unruly suspect than your average non veteran. That may just be bias on my part, but I do believe it to be true.

On the other hand, there are many checkpoint situations in warzones where refusing to stop would get you shot on the spot. I don't have examples handy, but you know it's true. We've generally adopted a gentler approach in domestic LE operations, in theory at least.

a reply to: TheBadCabbie

I was listening to the live feed the night before they left saying the FBI surrounded them. the guy they were talking to asked them to turn on the camera and get footage. The lady said they can't, she said they disabled them. Can they do this?

a reply to: TheBadCabbie

I think you make a good point in that the vets are usually going to be more reluctant to pull the trigger on an unruly suspect than your average non veteran. That may just be bias on my part, but I do believe it to be true.

I think the situation is relevant to the vet and how war affected them,and even more to the point what reasoning they have to join law enforcement, there would be many variables to consider....

a reply to: TheBadCabbie

The Sheriff tried to deescalate things as long as he could and nobody should be afraid of prison, it's actually the compliant part that brings the civil into civil disobedience. That's one way to look at it and I agree with your sentiment.
However, somebody clearly did arm up and rebel. And then they locked down a whole community and stirred up trouble with agent provocateurs before they prepared their ambush. That surely does look more like a declaration of war than the best plan available to me.
Peaceful surrender was a great choice after all, let's not forget this tiny but important fact. I'm glad nobody fired a shot during the occupation.

Finicum obviously thought the sheriff was an ally.

Shawna Cox, who was riding in Finicum's pickup at the time of the shooting, said Palmer "has always been in support of us."

When Finicum saw police coming onto U.S. 395 behind them, he told those in his truck, "We have to get to the sheriff," said Cox, who was arrested and faces a federal conspiracy charge for the occupation.

...

After Finicum's shooting, Palmer took to Facebook to defend Finicum against allegations circulating on social media that he was found with a stolen gun. The FBI has said Finicum had a loaded 9mm handgun in his pocket when he was killed, but hasn't said anything about its ownership.

The sheriff wrote that Finicum had been "through the wringer of state agencies" overseeing the foster children he cared for in Arizona. "I could positively, without a shadow of a doubt say that possessing a stolen gun is not and was not in this man's vocabulary," Palmer wrote.

www.oregonlive.com...

This whole 9mm story has a very fishy odor, at least that's for sure. One has to wonder why the FBI didn't release any further info by now. Quite possibly planted evidence.

a reply to: Boadicea

He broke the law.
He was armed.
He failed to comply with verbal commands.
He put his hands in his coat pocket.

That is a deadly force threat.

He was not murdered.
Natural inalienable rights are trumped by the law.