Magic is mislabled science?

magickesists says:

"what about things that are proven not magic but have actual reasons explained by scientific studies based in true science."

What about them? It seems to me that they're not magic if they can be "proven".

"By science i mean laws of physics and such."

I don't understand. Are you saying that sometimes phenomena occur which can't be explained by the state of the art in knowledge? I certainly agree.

"Things like gunpowder for example were long ago considered magic until they were explained by either the inventors or people who replicated the results."

Good point. That's the way science works: try to figure out a reason why something happens the way it does, and then, by using that explanation, see if you can get it to work all the time. Gunpowder is a great example. When the inventor (whomever he was) first noticed the characteristics of the gunpowder (assuming he wasn't killed in the observation), he probably figured out that, by mixing charcoal, sulfur and potassium nitrate, the stuff would pop if it were ignited and combustion pressures were allowed to buld up.

Over the next couple of centuries, I am sure that all the various scientists experimented around, determining what was the best ratio of KNO3 to the other two ingredients, and determining how high the enclosed pressure had to be prior to detonation, etc.

They might not have known the actual atomic chemistry of energetics, but they used the scientific method -- painstaking experimentation, recording their data, modifying a single variable, etc. -- to improve the product.

"Now if the same idea is used in modern day would it not mean that some things that are magic could be explained by investigation."

That's a good point. But for some reason, none of the people who talk about magic are willing to do that kind of investigation. I do not know why that is; do you?

"Another thought that occured to me is that magic spells like that of which to make money or have love are simply psychosamatic. For instance if you say, cast a love spell and by chance meet a girl who you later marry after casting the spell is it the spell or was would you have met this person anyway. the fact that you have casted the spell is simply a way for your subconcious to alarm you into taking action of making an impression on this woman as opposed to walking by her like the other 100 that you walked by the previous day. How is it that we don't make these choices of our own accord and then just say it had something to do with the magic."

Excellent point. I would be willing to go further and say that a "magic spell" could well be something that triggers you (assuming you know about the "magic spell") to give you a bit more self-confidence in your dealings with the fair maiden.

"That seems pretty unmagical to me because its psychology. another form of science performed by "scientists" of the mind and its interesting quirks.Right?"

True, although a lot of hard scientists and engineers don't consider psychology a "real" science because there are too many variables to deal with.

I personally believe that much of psychology is valid.

OFF_THE_STREET & Magickesists,
You both seem to be getting much closer in reaching some sort of conclusion in this debate/topic. That, in and of itself, is worth comment simply because it is usually a rare event around here. Good job guys!

Here is something else I found that you might find interesting.

Protoscience - en.wikipedia.org...
In the philosophy of science, a protoscience is any new area of scientific endeavor in the process of becoming established. Protoscience is a term sometimes used to describe a hypothesis which has not yet been tested adequately by the scientific method, but which is otherwise consistent with existing science or which, where inconsistent, offers reasonable account of the inconsistency.

While protoscience is often speculative, it is to be distinguished from pseudoscience by its adherence to the scientific method and standard practices of good science, most notably a willingness to be disproven by new evidence (if and when it appears), or supplanted by a more-predictive theory.

Fields such as astrology and alchemy prior to the invention of the scientific method can also be regarded as protosciences.

Magick - en.wikipedia.org...
Magick is an alternate spelling of magic, coined by Aleister Crowley to differentiate sorcery from illusion or stage magic.

IMO, much of what was called 'Magick' in the past has simply become what today is called 'Science'. Magick (in all it's variety) being the Protoscience of many different sciences today.
~ From Love Potions to Roofies.
~ From Scrying Divination to Probability Statistics.
~ From Clairvoyant Prophets to Remote Viewing Professors.
~ Magic Carpets to Superconductive Levitation.
...etc.

The term or word used, be it Magick, Science, Voodoo, Faith, Luck, etc. really doesn't matter much. More important is whether or not we fully understand the "How's" and "Why's" behind it. Maybe then we can simply call it "Art" and ourselves "Master Craftsmen" who can really create something worthy of being called a "Masterpiece".

Here's how I can explain it to all those interested.

'Magick" in the terms of it being an energy force is true from my personal experimentation and research. The reason that it works is that everyone has an energy that can interconnect with others. Through conversation, thought (thinking about someone) or focusing in on an object or such that represents that individual a link is created between the two. The more conversation with, thought about or fucusing on creates a stronger connection. By the way, sex creates the most intense connection. This goes to say that the most recent and strongest connections have the greatest effect on others. For instance if you have a 30 minute conversation with someone and someone else before you has a 10 minute conversation with them, you will hold a stronger "sway" on that individual. This connection is at an unconscience level to the target individual. They will tend to start liking the things that you like more or be more receptive to your ideas. You may also think positive or negative things about or for them and they will be more likely to bring out a certain result based on this. If you think about what I have explained above, you can come up with numerous applications for this. However, there are so many instances in a day that others have more contact with the target individual, that it is just about impossible to hold a strong connection for a long period of time. Also, there is great negative impact to the person initiating the "Magick" as they drain there energy doing this. It could be made stronger with a group of individuals concentrating on the same impact. Along with this, depending on whether the target individual is receiving positive or negative influences, they along with everyone else around will act differently to you. Maybe positively or maybe extremely negatively and for a longer time than you have done anything. This happens as all others here what is happening on an unconscience level also and respond accordingly.

This is how it works. Everyone does it on a daily basis unconsciously and some who are experienced in the "Black Arts" do it consciously with an extreme negative impact on themselves. What mostly happens to those that do this consciously is they end up eventually being isolated and lonely as an individual.

Some say "I only perform White Magic". It doesn't matter. All overt acts of "Magickal" manipulation are negative in nature as it is a hidden manipulation to the person targeted. There may be a short lived positive impact on the person, but the initiator is still going to receive a loss of energy and negative reply.


If anyone has any detailed questions, let me know and I'll explain further. I have no reason to hide this info from others.


[edit on 16-1-2005 by merovingian]

Originally posted by Off_The_Street
cug says:

"While Magick is a science, the thing that separates it from say chemistry is how the result arrives. "

No. "Magick" is not a science. If you can't measure it, if your results aren't repeatable, it's not a science.

The results ARE repeatable, just not how it arrives.

"With chemistry if I do A, B and C always happen and I get Z With Magick if I do A, B and C might happen and I get Z, or D and F might happen happen and I get Z."

Exactly. You get random results. If I stand on my head, I might split my pants or I might find a nickel or I might get a headache or I might get some sort of mystic insights.

Or I might not.

This is called "random happenstnce".

Correction both the above give you result "Z". The "problem" with Magick is there are too many variables to achieve precisely the same result. For example lets take a medieval catapult, things like the weight/placemat of the stone, friction in the hinge, the force of the counterweight/spring all effect the distance and location of where the stone ends up, but the result is always the same… the stone goes over that direction.

"If it doesn’t happen well then I did something wrong (just like in chemistry"

No. If it doesn't happen, it means that it doesn't work.

So what your saying is if jr does something wrong like using baking powder instead of baking soda in his science fair volcano project that means that you can’t make fake lava?

"Now the modern scientist will say that the result is a coincidence and the ritual had no effect on the outcome… but is it really a coincidence if the requested outcome always happens?"

No, it wouldn't always be coincidence if the requested outcome always happens.

But it doesn't!

But it does!

Originally posted by Off_The_Street
magickesists says:

"what about things that are proven not magic but have actual reasons explained by scientific studies based in true science."

What about them? It seems to me that they're not magic if they can be "proven".

Looks like you don’t know what the definition of Magick is. Quite simply it’s causing change in conformity with will.

Let be give you an example of a Magical ritual that will work for anyone.

A ritual for quenching thirst.

Enter your ritual space.

Perform some magical gestures.

Say some magick words.

Leave an offering.

Your thirst will be quenched.

Now in more detail

The ritual space is your local bar, the magical gestures is catching the bartenders eye and raising an index finger, the magick word is “Budweiser” the offering is a few bucks, and a beer will show up before you to quench your thirst.

They might not have known the actual atomic chemistry of energetics, but they used the scientific method -- painstaking experimentation, recording their data, modifying a single variable, etc. -- to improve the product.

That's exactly the same principals most Ceremonial Magicians use, and the reason for keeping a magical diary. But it's hard to modify a single variable when your not sure what all the variables are.

"Now if the same idea is used in modern day would it not mean that some things that are magic could be explained by investigation."

That's a good point. But for some reason, none of the people who talk about magic are willing to do that kind of investigation. I do not know why that is; do you?

Many are willing, but honestly the only ones interested in testing are the same ones trying to prove a negative. Another problem is not only does the Magick need proving so do the hundreds or thousands of variables have to be “proven” before you can even touch on the Magick part.

Excellent point. I would be willing to go further and say that a "magic spell" could well be something that triggers you (assuming you know about the "magic spell") to give you a bit more self-confidence in your dealings with the fair maiden.

Give the man a kewpie doll! That is a LARGE part of magick, another is that it’s all your imagination… thing is most people don’t understand how “real” there imagination really is.

"That seems pretty unmagical to me because its psychology. another form of science performed by "scientists" of the mind and its interesting quirks.Right?"

True, although a lot of hard scientists and engineers don't consider psychology a "real" science because there are too many variables to deal with.

I personally believe that much of psychology is valid.

Psychology is a big part of magick as is Yoga, in fact magick is often called the Yoga of the west.


[edit on 16-1-2005 by Cug]

In my personal opinion a magickal procedure, if properly performed, will produce the desired effect every time it is done in the right manner and in the right circumstances by a person who has the ability and knowledge to perform such acts.

Let's examine a few facts briefly..

In order to do (grey) magick successfully: (If you're not into ritualism, don't be offended )

- Preliminary preparations should be made

The magician should have the ritual space prepared, preferably cleansed, and banished.

- A 'circle' should be cast.

- One must be able to raise and control magickal energy.

This can be done with different methods (yet the idea is same) but success is required. The Middle Pillar Ritual is one popular example.

- Directing Will

What takes place here is the act of imprinting the intention of the ritual as a statement/image/both. The stronger the magician feels the stronger the imprint on the astral plane that precedes physical manifestation, and thus faster the desired outcome manifests on the physical plane.

In magickal tradition there are also a set of symbolism that should be considered. This is, of course, a part of preliminary preparations. As an example, sometimes there are magickal hours that the magick should be performed on.

Because the magicians have found out that by performing their magick on a specific hour they can make sure that the desired outcome will manifest in their lifes _repeatedly_ they have constructed a system of planetary hours.

Sounds like a scientific method of test and confirm to me.. However, if the magickal act would have repeatedly failed, I doubt that the magicians would have continued performing them trough centuries!

There really are no concepts if there aren't _any_ realistic background to them. Magick is real, and it is a science, only in separation from the mainstream science in a way that in the case of magick the scientists doing their research won't come out from the closet because they are understandably concerned about their reputation.

There are a few stories I've heard from real magickians who have performed healing rituals in order to help people who they know in their time of need, and did so with remarkable results. The ones saved from permanent skull fracture or such took it as a miracle. So did their families. The magicians were silent about it.

There'd be many more saved if practical occultism were accepted by dominant world religions. Instead, people who only wanted to help mankind, have been burned at the stake!

My point is that I think magick is a science, the scientists only have to wait for a millenia or two before more effective research can take place.

What takes place here is the act of imprinting the intention of the ritual as a statement/image/both. The stronger the magician feels the stronger the imprint on the astral plane that precedes physical manifestation, and thus faster the desired outcome manifests on the physical plane.

Oh, and this would be done with the aid of subconscious, which is an important tool that trough all magick is done.

My point is that I think magick is a science, the scientists only have to wait for a millenia or two before more effective research can take place.

Or a millennium. Potato potatoe. English isn't my native language .






[edit on 17-1-2005 by gth]

[edit on 17-1-2005 by gth]

[edit on 17-1-2005 by gth]

I see alot of reasons that have been suggested as to why myself or others should believe magic is in fact truly plausible. However i have seen or heard of no actualy cases do you have real facts to back up all these statements as what we are trying to decipher in this thread is the nature of magic and the things behind the causes. Not what you believe to be the truth as beleifs can be misleading, but actual results graphs whatever you can provide that would show actual results practices and/or the reasons that the magic actually works. What do you people believe allows you to control energy and thought to manipulate matter or people. Im not alluding that anyone in the forum is manipulating people with magic. It's just that all the things being described, energy focusing, channeling and such are all a result of the brain and/or mind. now with that in mind do you agree that anything that manifests itself in reality do to a body part is able to be considered scientifically investigatable.

Originally posted by Magickesists
I see alot of reasons that have been suggested as to why myself or others should believe magic is in fact truly plausible.

There is no reason for you to blindly believe, learn about it, try it, test for yourself.

However i have seen or heard of no actualy cases do you have real facts to back up all these statements as what we are trying to decipher in this thread is the nature of magic and the things behind the causes. Not what you believe to be the truth as beleifs can be misleading, but actual results graphs whatever you can provide that would show actual results practices and/or the reasons that the magic actually works.

Pretty much any practicing ceremonial magician will have every ritual they did logged with the conditions of the ritual, and the outcome. It’s probably the number one most useful magical tool. I have 15 years worth of such notes.

What do you people believe allows you to control energy and thought to manipulate matter or people. Im not alluding that anyone in the forum is manipulating people with magic. It's just that all the things being described, energy focusing, channeling and such are all a result of the brain and/or mind. now with that in mind do you agree that anything that manifests itself in reality do to a body part is able to be considered scientifically investigatable.

The results "manifest" themselves by natural means... so pretty much any scientific investigation will say any result arrived by natural means and discount it. Magick is NOT paranormal!

The results "manifest" themselves by natural means... so pretty much any scientific investigation will say any result arrived by natural means and discount it. Magick is NOT paranormal!

Explain natural means please for inquiring minds.

Natural means is just that. If you perform a ritual for money a pot of gold wont appear in front of you in a puff of smoke. If you perform a ritual for love, Pamela Anderson is not going to be in your bed waiting for you. If you curse someone a demon is not going to rip their face off. That stuff belongs on Bewitched or I Dream of Genie.

In the real world money might come from a new job, an inheritance, or found in the laundry. Love might show up when you bump into someone at the supermarket, get set up on a blind date, or you mom might visit (oops you better try that again) and a curse could show up in a run of bad luck, lost job/money/love etc… you know the natural way.

there may be some of you that have enrolled in this already but this is a site that i have been told about while in my travels on ats here check it out.

Academy of sorcery

Giv me your opinions im in the process of verifying the actual truth of the designer of the web page and am trying to see if hes a crackpot or really telling the truth. Well made site for believability though makes me wanna enroll.

Scam.

Why pay to get some pdf's of old magical texts when they are all over the internet?

Most of what they are talking about can be found here.
www.hermetics.org...

Or if you want/need help think about joining The Sanctuary of Ma'at Order of the Golden Dawn www.ritual-magic.com... it's an online "virtual" order.

Or you can hook up with your local O.T.O. if you are leaning to Thelema.

The "powers" he claims are not what you think (remember natural means) for example invisibility is not transparent, it's escaping notice. Ever had someone bump into you? "Oh I'm sorry I didn't see you" they didn't see you so at the time you were invisible to them.

You're right, practically all of the stuff is in that website. Even the lesser key of Solomon... (Commanding Goetia demons)

That is some real serious stuff I've read. Apparently Solomon from the bible used to command those demons to help him reach his goals.

And there's another version of the dead see crossing by Moses and the Israelites involving the Goetia demons...

[edit on 20-1-2005 by TheBandit795]

hey how long would it take to attain results from these programs and things. would they actually do the things suggested?

Oh yeah i used the email option on the academy of sorcery and got an error not htp found thingy that made me think it was a scam right away.

Originally posted by Magickesists
hey how long would it take to attain results from these programs and things. would they actually do the things suggested?

Oh yeah i used the email option on the academy of sorcery and got an error not htp found thingy that made me think it was a scam right away.

How long it takes will depend on how talented you are.i have taken up the course and have access to the members area.
Just to clarify some things with you.
Firstly it is not a scam,there is a lot of information in there.Like i said,i cant tell you how true the information is,you have to do your own research,even the website suggest us to do our own research if we have question about the information they provide.
Secondly,some of the information inside can be found in other website and is exactly the same,word by word.
Thirdly,regarding the become invisible and levitating part,i cant find it inside the members area.Maybe the information is within some of the ebooks given,i am still reading them,so i assume that i will find them sooner or later.
Lastly,i too have problems with the email system,but i send them a email using their email address directly with my own email.Btw,if someones email is not working properly it could be some programming problem.

i wish i could command the goetia demons to make my coffee in the morning

According to what I've read. They're some very stubborn little spirit creatures... So you'll have to tell them to make you coffee or else I destroy you!!!

so all the debating and argument aside what is possible with the magic in these books anyway. Can you cause extreme things to happen and be a ridiculous wizard/sorceror/witch whatever? in theory what is possible with these tombs of arkane knowledge?

Originally posted by Magickesists
so all the debating and argument aside what is possible with the magic in these books anyway.

The number one goal of Ceremonial Magick (The name for the magick on the before mentioned site) is spiritual enlightenment, becoming one with God.