Yahweh is not the Most High God, Israel in ancient Canaan and henotheism

originally posted by: Shiloh7
a reply to: areyousirius360

I watched the Israeli archaeologist Israel Finbkelstein show two statuettes of both YHWH and Asherah, Queen of Heaven he had dug up who he said were part of the Canaanite Pantheon. When I looked it up YHWH appears to have been also called El with Baal one of his and Asherah's many children who formed the second tier of the Pantheon. I do find that the information on this seems to have changed over the years though from when I first researched this back in the 1980's.

I suspect it is unlikely due to the length of time and of course vested interest we will ever get to the real truth behind the different Gods all their different names and their places of origin.

The fact that the Gods are viewed differently by the various religious persuasions is quite fascinating because I suspect in the West most people thought God was God but apparently not, Allah isn''t the Christian God nor is he YHWH so yet more hissing fits are probably going to arise.

What is Allah though?

The God... is what it means

There are many gods, but where is the ONE?

a reply to: Akragon
Im talking about ancient Canaan, pre Babylonian captivity Hebrews. The length of time. Between El El yon showing up in archeology is thousands of years before the name YHWH existed, and the Israelites, who were basically a small tribe of Canaanites, worshipped Baal and everybody worshipped El Elyon. Baal kind of stole his father's consort. So when you see Yahweh with Asherah stuff, it's not El, it's Baal that is Yahweh. Both words even get translated as Lord.

a reply to: Akragon

Allah is derived from El. The early Muslims didn't distinguish because the whole monotheism thing was going. Ask a Muslim today and Allah is El

a reply to: chr0naut
Nothing casts any doubt on it because it's true. Follow me.
Ancient Israelites/Hebrews had neverr heard the word Yahweh, but El Elyon and Baal they did. El is THOUSANDS of years before Yahweh is found in archeological records and Yahweh is no more than a replacement name for Baal. I'm actually not surprised people don't know this, or search for ways to say it's not true. I just hate when people say ridiculous things like "cast heavy doubt upon...
Academically the issue is settled, save a few crackpots. The Jewish Talmudists and Kabbalists know it, have known it, and would laugh at you for your statements.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLambIt's not a hypothesis, wasn't getting defensive just calling out your reason for complaining.
It's now in the realm of fact. So catch up with knowledge, or go ask the preacher man to tell you what to believe.

a reply to: areyousirius360

TextThe lie that the ancient Israelites were Yahwist is from the people who combined the various traditions and merged them, making Yahweh the Most High God, which he never was. So the writers of the Nag Hammadi texts were on the right track, Yahweh IS an abomination and not the father of Immanuel " Jesus" the Messiah. Thoughts? Questions?

You do not have the Torah Autographs so you are simply guessing just as the scholars are also guessing. You do realize that you must have the authors autographs to compare the many renditions of today. There simply is no other way to be certain.

Jesus taught one God who was his celestial Father and no other is recorded as to what He taught. Moses taught one God also and his God was that of Jesus' teaching. For Jesus also said --

John_5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

If Moses wrote of Jesus and Jesus acknowledges Moses, then Moses' God is the same as Jesus' God. One God and only one God. By this I hold true to the Torah that both Moses and Jesus taught, one God, the Father of Abram and not a pantheon of Gods based upon the misunderstandings of mortals.

Also in the dead sea scrolls we have 25 texts of 1 Enoch and within those texts are cited the sons of God as being the 200 angels who left their first estate to procreate another three other races with human women.

originally posted by: areyousirius360
a reply to: chr0naut
Nothing casts any doubt on it because it's true. Follow me.
Ancient Israelites/Hebrews had neverr heard the word Yahweh, but El Elyon and Baal they did. El is THOUSANDS of years before Yahweh is found in archeological records and Yahweh is no more than a replacement name for Baal. I'm actually not surprised people don't know this, or search for ways to say it's not true. I just hate when people say ridiculous things like "cast heavy doubt upon...
Academically the issue is settled, save a few crackpots. The Jewish Talmudists and Kabbalists know it, have known it, and would laugh at you for your statements.

There was a whole menagerie of local gods that existed in Canaan prior to YHWH (and some even prior to El). Canaan was polytheistic before disparate Canaanites became monotheistic. YHWH was the name revealed to Moses, just before Israel began identifying itself as a nation rather than simply a collection of (mostly slave) tribes from Canaan. It didn't happen earlier, when all the other ancient Canaanite gods were recorded. Gods like: Marduk, El, Sin, Astarte, Asherah, Elat, Athira, Anat, Eshmun, Kothar, Lotan, Moloch, Shapshu, Baal, Baalat, Dagon, Mot, Quadeshu, Resheph, Shamayim, Shemesh, Yarich and Yam (and there were more variants upon these gods).

The whole issue of monotheism seems to have escaped you. The Torah is monotheistic, it assumes only one 'true God' and describes other 'gods' as false. From the time of Moses until the return from the Babylonian captivity, the Hebrew nation is described as sinning by worshiping false Gods. The text describes these not just as 'other' gods, but also as complete fantasies.

From the text, Moses obviously equated YHWH with El Elyon and the other ten or so names and titles of God, that he used throughout the Torah. The Torah does not differentiate them as separate deities and does record a multiplicity of names and titles for the "one true God". That is the traditional conservative view, also held Talmundists and Kabbalists (so they wouldn't be laughing at me at all), and it is the one to which I concur.

Your idea that El and YHWH were different Gods is based upon a misunderstanding of what the archaeological record is actually saying (about the dating of the occurrence of the names) and pure supposition. You have no hard evidence that specifically disproves the traditional monotheistic view.

The fact that you must ignore the content of very text in question (the primary documentary source) to uphold your view could perhaps indicate the most obvious 'academic' counter to the idea's validity.

Also, the word "Baal" means "Lord" in Ugaritic, Hebrew and Phoenecian. There were many Baals. YHWH was a Baal, El Elyon was a Baal, the human kings of various nations were Baals. Later Baal Hadad, the 'bull god' of fertility and storms, introduced by the Amorites and spread widely, was referred to simply as Baal. In that sense, Baal was not El. Baal was not YHWH.

Similarly, "Allah" is the Arabic word for 'god". With rise of Islam (@ 400 AD) Mohamed said that there was only one God and all the other gods were false. So the generic Arabic word for "a god" became the descriptor of a singular monotheistic God. The symbol for Allah, the crescent moon, was actually the symbol for the Arabic god "Sin" in the Arabic pantheon. Mohamed combined many of the individual attributes of the Arabic polytheistic gods into the one God, that he called God (Allah). So although we could say El is Allah, as an honorific, we cannot say that the deity Allah is the deity El.

a reply to: chr0naut
That's all church bs doctrine which I am not indoctrinated into, so I can see it clearly. You must have a serious loyalty to this war criminal Yahweh.

a reply to: chr0naut
Yahweh is Baal. I don't know any one who has ever said El was Baal. Your obviously typing as you learn where as Im going off memory.
Yahweh is 100% not El Elyon, Iam saying with certainty that this is a fact.
Google another article and this time get it together.

originally posted by: areyousirius360
a reply to: chr0naut
That's all church bs doctrine which I am not indoctrinated into, so I can see it clearly. You must have a serious loyalty to this war criminal Yahweh.

No, it is in the text of the Torah, that is why it is echoed in Church doctrine. It is also behind Jewish religious doctrine, too.

What war was YHWH a criminal in? What court judged Him as guilty?

originally posted by: areyousirius360
a reply to: chr0naut
Yahweh is Baal. I don't know any one who has ever said El was Baal. Your obviously typing as you learn where as Im going off memory.
Yahweh is 100% not El Elyon, Iam saying with certainty that this is a fact.
Google another article and this time get it together.

YHWH is Lord. El is Lord. Baal means Lord. Adonai means Lord (plural). YHWH is not the 'Baal Hadad', Baal.

There was a showdown between the prophet Elijah (who always uses YHWH to describe his God) and the priests of Baal (and Asherah), at Mount Carmel.

Elijah asked the priests of Baal to call down fire and light their altars, to prove that Baal was real. Read about it below:

1 Kings 18:16-45 Common English Bible (CEB) with original textual names restored and verified with Strong's Concordance.

16 So Obadiah went to meet Ahab. He told him what had happened. Then Ahab went to meet Elijah. 17 When Ahab saw Elijah, Ahab said to him, “Is that you, the one who troubles Israel?”

18 Elijah answered, “I haven’t troubled Israel; you and your father’s house have! You did as much when you deserted YHWH’s commands and followed the Baals. 19 Now send a message and gather all Israel to me at Mount Carmel. Gather the four hundred fifty prophets of Baal and the four hundred prophets of Asherah who eat at Jezebel’s table.”

20 Ahab sent the message to all the Israelites. He gathered the prophets at Mount Carmel. 21 Elijah approached all the people and said, “How long will you hobble back and forth between two opinions? If YHWH is God (Elohim), follow Him. If Baal is, follow Baal.” The people gave no answer.

22 Elijah said to the people, “I am the last of the YHWH’s prophets, but Baal’s prophets number four hundred fifty. 23 Give us two bulls. Let Baal’s prophets choose one. Let them cut it apart and set it on the wood, but don’t add fire. I’ll prepare the other bull, put it on the wood, but won’t add fire. 24 Then all of you will call on the name of your god, and I will call on the name of YHWH. The god who answers with fire—that’s the real God!”

All the people answered, “That’s an excellent idea.”

25 So Elijah said to the prophets of Baal, “Choose one of these bulls. Prepare it first since there are so many of you. Call on the name of your god, but don’t add fire.”

26 So they took one of the bulls that had been brought to them. They prepared it and called on Baal’s name from morning to midday. They said, “Great Baal, answer us!” But there was no sound or answer. They performed a hopping dance around the altar that had been set up.

27 Around noon, Elijah started making fun of them: “Shout louder! Certainly he’s a god! Perhaps he is lost in thought or wandering or traveling somewhere. Or maybe he is asleep and must wake up!”

28 So the prophets of Baal cried with a louder voice and cut themselves with swords and knives as was their custom. Their blood flowed all over them. 29 As noon passed they went crazy with their ritual until it was time for the evening offering. Still there was no sound or answer, no response whatsoever.

30 Then Elijah said to all the people, “Come here!” All the people closed in, and he repaired YHWH’s altar that had been damaged. 31 Elijah took twelve stones, according to the number of the tribes of the sons of Jacob—to whom YHWH’s word came: “Your name will be Israel.” 32 He built the stones into an altar in YHWH’s name, and he dug a trench around the altar big enough to hold two seahs of dry grain. 33 He put the wood in order, butchered the bull, and placed the bull on the wood. “Fill four jars with water and pour it on the sacrifice and on the wood,” he commanded. 34 “Do it a second time!” he said. So they did it a second time. “Do it a third time!” And so they did it a third time. 35 The water flowed around the altar, and even the trench filled with water. 36 At the time of the evening offering, the prophet Elijah drew near and prayed: “YHWH, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, let it be known today that you are God (Elohim) in Israel and that I am your servant. I have done all these things at your instructions. 37 Answer me, YHWH! Answer me so that this people will know that you, YHWH, are the real God (Elohim) and that you can change their hearts.”[d] 38 Then YHWH’s fire fell; it consumed the sacrifice, the wood, the stones, and the dust. It even licked up the water in the trench!

39 All the people saw this and fell on their faces. “The YHWH is the real God (Elohim)! YHWH is the real God!” they exclaimed.

40 Elijah said to them, “Seize Baal’s prophets! Don’t let any escape!” The people seized the prophets, and Elijah brought them to the Kishon Brook and killed them there. 41 Elijah then said to Ahab, “Get up! Celebrate with food and drink because I hear the sound of a rainstorm coming.” 42 So Ahab got up to celebrate with food and drink. But Elijah went up to the top of Mount Carmel. He bowed down to the ground and put his face between his knees. 43 He said to his assistant, “Please get up and look toward the sea.”

So the assistant did so. He said, “I don’t see anything.”

Seven times Elijah said, “Do it again.”

44 The seventh time the assistant said, “I see a small cloud the size of a human hand coming up from the sea.”

Elijah said, “Go and tell Ahab, ‘Pull yourself together, go down the mountain, and don’t let the rain hold you back.’” 45 After a little while, the sky became dark with clouds, and a wind came up with a huge rainstorm. Ahab was already riding on his way to Jezreel,

The Old Testament is full of this sort of clear distinction that you are ignoring. Like I said, the text is plain but you have obviously not actually read it.

By the way, Elijah refers to the Baals as Elohim. He uses Elohim not as a name but as a description.

a reply to: chr0naut
Your embarrassing yourself. El means God whenever it's used. God is different than lord because El is Baal/Yahweh's father. It's fascinating how hard you will try to disprove actual truth just to defend a war criminal named Yahweh when you could just worship the kind Elyon. Psychologically fascinating.

a reply to: chr0naut
Infanticide and genocide are both war crimes committed by Yahweh, have you read the bible?

a reply to: Seede
I'm afraid you are wrong and essentially doing what you accuse me of, guessing.
What is obvious to some is foolishness to the fool.

originally posted by: areyousirius360
a reply to: chr0naut
Nothing casts any doubt on it because it's true. Follow me.
Ancient Israelites/Hebrews had neverr heard the word Yahweh, but El Elyon and Baal they did. El is THOUSANDS of years before Yahweh is found in archeological records and Yahweh is no more than a replacement name for Baal. I'm actually not surprised people don't know this, or search for ways to say it's not true. I just hate when people say ridiculous things like "cast heavy doubt upon...
Academically the issue is settled, save a few crackpots. The Jewish Talmudists and Kabbalists know it, have known it, and would laugh at you for your statements.

originally posted by: areyousirius360
a reply to: areyousirius360 Allah means The God and is definitely not Yahweh.

At least you have that part right.

a reply to: infolurker
I have gotten it all right, but thank you. I don't make threads about things I am wrong about and have done my homework in.

a reply to: areyousirius360

In the Old Testament Yahweh occurs 6,519 times. This name is used more than any other name of God. Yahweh is first used in Gen 2:4

Yahweh is used wherever the Bible stresses God's personal relationship with his people and the ethical aspect of his nature.

Elohim refers to God as the Creator of the whole universe of people and things, and especially of the material world

Genesis 1 correctly used the name Elohim, for God's role as Creator of the whole universe and of all living things. Genesis 2-3, describes God's (YHWH) very intimate and personal relationship with the first human pair, Adam and Eve.


Psalm 19 is one of the best examples of how these names are used. The first 6 verses speak of Elohim and His relation to the material world. However, beginning in verse 7, YHWH appears and the focus of the Psalm shifts to the law, precepts, and His relationship with humans who know Him.

originally posted by: areyousirius360
That's all church bs doctrine which I am not indoctrinated into, so I can see it clearly. You must have a serious loyalty to this war criminal Yahweh.

That has got to be one of the most incredibly ironic things I've heard in a long time.

The fact that you honestly think that you haven't been indoctrinated tells me just the opposite is true.

Gnosticism IS in fact indoctrination whether you call a spade a spade or not.

It also has no more credibility than any other cult.

It's no wonder you would prefer not to cite sources.

Some say that Gnosticism was considered to be the Scientology of the Second Century, and I completely agree...

Satanic practices throughout the world can be traced in an unbroken line directly back to Gnosticism...

Curse of Canaan

The current Illuminati religion is based on Gnosticism...

Simon Magus -- The lluminati's Jesus?

To understand how people are being brainwashed by The Illuminati to hate God and accept the coming Anti-Christ ... You must understand gnosticism! Even the first century church had to deal with these heretics... They claim that the devil is the savior and our God is a devil! They invert the truth!

Illuminati Satanic Gnosticism EXPOSED

a reply to: Murgatroidim not a Gnostic so that was a waste of time. I have no religion.