Oregon protest leader Ammon Bundy is arrested, says source

a reply to: Gryphon66

I have to wonder then, since you have been diligently poking around and posting your findings, what percentage of people who showed up at the refuge as occupiers besides the main group belong to the LDS. Perhaps the answer is very few and was not a draw. Also, perhaps the Bundy and Finicum ancestral roots have very interesting connections besides long-time farmers of the land.

Do you think Finicum saw himself as the White Horse, willing to sacrifice his life? I can see him as an archetype, an archetype which was activated when he crossed the Rubicon (his words), saw the bald eagle right before arriving at the refuge and took it as a sign (freedom) he was to continue as there was no going back from there on in.

While I agree the Constitution has been battered and is often under threat, my viewpoint has nothing to do with any religion.

Ammon, via his lawyers, has been unable to convince the hold-outs at the refuge to leave.

a reply to: diggindirt

I posted four links above, each of which states that the officers who shot Finicum were SWAT.

I posted a link to the Oregon SWAT homepage.

There are, as I have said before, dozens more readily available. Use a search engine type in Finicum SWAT.

a reply to: tweetie

Your initial question is a really complex one as the Bundys seems to have misstated or exaggerated the numbers of folks "showing up" at the Refuge.

Also, the LDS Church formally distanced itself from the seizure of Malheur:LDS Church condemns seizure of Oregon federal facilities by militia citing Mormon beliefs - Deseret News, January 4, 2016

This armed occupation can in no way be justified on a scriptural basis. We are privileged to live in a nation where conflicts with government or private groups can — and should — be settled using peaceful means, according to the laws of the land."

However, in that same article ... there are several references to comments made by Bundy gang members to Mormon scriptures, phrases, etc.

If you are interested in the philosophical base of what the Bundys (and therefore, their followers) are espousing you must review Skousen's philosophy especially The Making of America and The Five Thousand Year Leap (links provided earlier and copied by Desert linked to a very decent scholarly article called "The Tea Party's Constitution" by Jared A. Goldstein). By the way, the LDS Church has also condemned Skousen.

If I were hazarding a comment (and I really have not studied this sufficiently yet) I would say that this movement has been affected more by LDS folklore than fact and further that what we are seeing is a fairly textbook example of the concept of a Black Swan Event coupled with run-away unintended consequences.

Also ... Pandora's Box Metaphor, on steroids.

ETA: Interesting side note: In light of that last comment, I do not think that Ammon Bundy intended to "take over" the Malheur Refuge.


And to answer your question ... I think Lavoy Finicum became enthralled with what the Bundys are teaching. I think that his ranching career was not going very well (and, further that it's a damned hard way to earn a living at the best of times) resulting in taking in foster kids (which, in his own words, became their primary income in the last few years at least.) So ... no, I don't think he thought he was the White Rider ... perhaps more akin to John the Baptist ... Cliven Bundy did describe Finicum's death as "a sacrifice" ...

“We believe those federal people shouldn’t even be there in that state, and be in that county and have anything to do with this issue. … I have some sons and other people there trying to protect our rights and liberties and freedoms, and now we’ve got one killed, and I can say is, he’s sacrificed for a good purpose.”

Five Things You Need to Know - heavy.com

a reply to: tweetie

With a little more digging ... only a few more details:

Mormons involved in the Oregon protest include Ryan Bundy and brother Ammon, apparently named after a figure in the Book of Mormon. Another militia member dubs himself Captain Moroni, a warrior in the LDS faith's signature scripture.

That doesn't tell us anything we didn't know, really ...

A 21st-century Mormon "would be hard-pressed," said Reeve, author of "Religion of a Different Culture: Race and the Mormon Struggle for Whiteness," "to justify an armed opposition to the federal government through their religion."

Well, so would just about any other rational person ... IMO ... but here's the somewhat "final word" in regard to the LDS Church's long-term stance:

The Utah-based faith's statement, posted on mormonnewsroom.org, also links to a 1992 speech by senior LDS apostle Dallin H. Oaks, a former Utah Supreme Court justice, in which he warns against "excessive zeal" in creating so-called militias.

"I caution those patriots who are participating in or provisioning private armies and making private preparations for armed conflict," Oaks said in the address given at church-owned Brigham Young University in Provo. Such people "risk spiritual downfall as they withdraw from the society of the church and from the governance of those civil authorities to whom our 12th article of faith makes all of us subject."

Source: The Salt Lake Tribune - Mormon Leaders to Oregon Militia "Your Religion Isn't with You"

a reply to: Gryphon66

I've seen plenty of black swan events. This whole event has so many layers to me.

LaVoy stated that Ryan Bundy drove up with him and they only planned to stay a few days. He said Ryan brought one day's change of clothes but LaVoy said he is a prepper so he came more prepared, just in case.

Troubled foster kids. Over 50 in the last decade. I can't think of a better experience for them than to spend time on a working farm out in the boonies. I hope many of them were helped and benefited. I know from a friend the huge responsibility of taking in troubled foster kids. She took in a total of 6 severely abused girls over the course of several years. They all had serious psychological baggage. I know what she went through. It was not for the money, it was a labor of love and commitment. She wanted to make a difference in these damaged children's lives.

Thanks for all of the info.

Black swan event... Sacrifice... Archetype...

The folks in jail are in for a long haul.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: diggindirt

I posted four links above, each of which states that the officers who shot Finicum were SWAT.

I posted a link to the Oregon SWAT homepage.

There are, as I have said before, dozens more readily available. Use a search engine type in Finicum SWAT.

All your linked stories say the same thing: "Members of a SWAT team on Highway 395 reportedly opened fire after a high-speed getaway attempt and a reach for the waistband, CNN reported."

Did you see that? "a SWAT" team, not specific at all.
The FBI has SWAT teams as well.www.fbi.gov...

One of the ladies in the truck said she saw only FBI at the scene immediately following the shooting. The state police came up after the shooting was over. There were numerous reports that the FBI SWAT had assembled in the days leading up the killing.

Who---not what agency---who---what person/s shot Levoy? That was my question because I've not found a source that says that the authorities have released that information, or even which SWAT team was involved. The SWAT team doesn't kill anybody but members of those teams, state and federal, often do kill or maim people.

a reply to: tweetie

Taking in foster kids is great! I agree. I support foster parent programs. I personally contribute to a similar private program in Atlanta. I also support government provided welfare programs (as long as they are limited in scope).

However, being paid $100K plus a year from a government-sponsored charity to do so makes the challenges to government authority somewhat ... contradictory at least, no?

Well, I started out looking for facts the the case ... and kept bumping into this other "thing" ... I'll admit, I don't really know what I'm looking at ... at the moment.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: diggindirt

I posted four links above, each of which states that the officers who shot Finicum were SWAT.

I posted a link to the Oregon SWAT homepage.

There are, as I have said before, dozens more readily available. Use a search engine type in Finicum SWAT.

Are they now training them to execute more unarmed civilians?

a reply to: GeisterFahrer

Source?

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: GeisterFahrer

Source?

There was this video released the other day by the FBI, perhaps you have seen it? It was aerial footage of an execution of an unarmed US citizen. According to eyewitness testimony of two women that were actually there, this citizen had his arms in the air and was surrendering when he was shot.

But, it seems to be the opinion of a lot of people who were not there, that they were not executed.

originally posted by: GeisterFahrer

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: GeisterFahrer

Source?

There was this video released the other day by the FBI, perhaps you have seen it? It was aerial footage of an execution of an unarmed US citizen.

So, no source for your claim that Oregon SWAT is being trained to execute citizens?

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: GeisterFahrer

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: GeisterFahrer

Source?

There was this video released the other day by the FBI, perhaps you have seen it? It was aerial footage of an execution of an unarmed US citizen.

So, no source for your claim that Oregon SWAT is being trained to execute citizens?

it actually was not a claim, it was a question. Do you know how to tell the difference?

there is a symbol in the English language at the end of the sentence that will indicate that a question is being asked. The symbol is below:

?

a reply to: GeisterFahrer

You might want to look up the meaning of rhetorical question.

Here, I'll help:

A rhetorical question is a figure of speech in the form of a question that is asked to make a point rather than to elicit an answer.

No need to thank me.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: GeisterFahrer

You might want to look up the meaning of rhetorical question.

Here, I'll help:

A rhetorical question is a figure of speech in the form of a question that is asked to make a point rather than to elicit an answer.

No need to thank me.

Are you implying I don't know the meaning of a rhetorical question? Or is that a statement that you believe I cannot tell the difference?

Since you are the self professed expert, I was asking you if they were training to execute more unarmed civilians, as they have already executed one.

Even though you said there was no need - I truly thank you - you are a god

a reply to: GeisterFahrer

In rough order of your post ...

Apparently not.

No, it is a statement that you do know the difference.

Quote my profession that I am "an expert."

Finicum was not executed.

ETA: Oh, you were editing to clean up your poor formatting ... one more answer:

No need.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: GeisterFahrer

In rough order of your post ...

Apparently not.

No, it is a statement that you do know the difference.

Quote my profession that I am "an expert."

Finicum was not executed.

ETA: Oh, you were editing to clean up your poor formatting ... one more answer:

No need.

Yes, I edit when I realize I have made a mistake in formatting.

Please prove that the two eyewitnesses inside of Finicum's truck were lying. Try to avoid using phrases such as "Because I said so", because that really does not sway anyone's opinion.

They have to be proven liars. Otherwise, Finicum was executed. This is troubling more people than you may realize.

You will have a hard time, and my sympathy, for endeavoring on such a task, as you will have to prove how honest the FBI has always been.

-snickering a little bit -

a reply to: GeisterFahrer

No, I cannot prove that anyone is lying, but I can say that you're offering a fairly blatant logical fallacy, to wit: not being able to prove that someone is lying doesn't prove that they're telling the truth. A host of other options arise, such as, the witness is mistaken. /shrug

Of note, however, according to the "testimony" thus far of Sharon Cox on several independent radio shows like "End Times News" ... she was hunkered down fearing for her life in the back seat of the vehicle while it was being riddled with gunfire yet she was able to clearly observe every move that Mr. Finicum made outside the vehicle and hear every word he uttered even while she and the other occupants were simultaneously singing hymns at the top of their lungs.

Salt Lake Tribune

A Call To Paul

Inquistr - News Worth Sharing

a reply to: GeisterFahrer

I've answered your question, now perhaps you would return the favor.

You've asserted that two eyewitnesses testimony, if true, proves that Mr. Finicum was executed.

Please prove that the two eyewitnesses testimony is true.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: GeisterFahrer

I've answered your question, now perhaps you would return the favor.

You've asserted that two eyewitnesses testimony, if true, proves that Mr. Finicum was executed.

Please prove that the two eyewitnesses testimony is true.

I really didn't need to prove anything - i just wanted you to admit that you really don't know.

hee hee

a reply to: GeisterFahrer

So, no evidence that the "eyewitnesses" are providing factual information then? Fine.

I've never claimed "to know."

It seems you don't "know" either.