Addiction is not a Disease

originally posted by: Boadicea

originally posted by: pl3bscheese
a reply to: Boadicea

Reread your definition. It most certainly does not meet the qualification. It is not the response to environmental factors...

Okay, fair enough. So by environmental, we're talking about foreign substances breathed in or absorbed via the skin or some such. Would that be a fair statement?

No. You're choosing to sidestep the obvious. Don't make me point it out for you, because you know it already.

If you can't grasp the difference between a condition, a syndrome, and a disease that's your deal.

The point is incredibly obvious to anyone who has spent time in a center for rehabilitation in the last few decades. In the US it is MANDATORY to be taught the 12 steps program in line with the disease model of addiction. This isn't semantics, this is programming for profit, at the detriment to the individual's attempt to recover.

Telling someone that they are not to be shamed for their condition which is ultimately their choice, and putting blame on the disease is immoral. Telling an individual that they need to be powerless in order to recover from this diseased state is opening up abuse by anyone put in a position of authority in this matter.

The power always rest with the individual's choice. Programming someone to believe they are powerless is what religions and cults do, and mixing it up with science does not make it legit. It makes it in line with scientology.

originally posted by: pl3bscheese
a reply to: Hecate666

People can and do physically quit heroine. You need to slowly ween the same as an alcoholic. Do you have any links that support the notion that the brain is permanently damaged? I would be curious to read this. Thank you.

OK, with 'permanently damaged, I mean that the receptors used when using heroin for example, become permanently 'expectant' for heroin.
There are ion channels that are just unused in most people. Once 'awakened' by heroin or any other substance they change their shape permanently.

Yes, you can wean yourself off but with certain substances, such as alcohol or heroin for example you will be forever an addict, even if you give up. You will have to forever avoid the drugs that caused this and could become fully addicted again just after one use.

This is not the case for hallucinogens. Once they are out of your system, the receptors go back to their original state and all you have to worry about is your own weakness when it comes to wanting to experience the pleasure again.

Both can lead to addiction. But one is forever and the other isn't. You could in theory [as has been done, tested on kids in the 60s] take one t rip a day for a year and then give up and feel none the worse [after a couple of days I have to assume ].

I don't know if I want to scour the internet right now for evidence [my degree is quite old 1999] and all I remember is certain lectures that interested me.

All I can say is that it has to do with the changing of protein in receptors. In one case they don't change because the drug you take is a perfect fit, whilst in the case of barbituates, the receptors change shape to accomodate the drug which has to be 'similar' to anything natural that would normally use these receptors. I learned that this change is permanent and will leave a craving even after years of becoming clean.

Sorry, won't find anything online right now, as it would be work for me and I can't be arsed right now. It's the weekend.

I have to add that Neuroscience may have found other things since 1999, I would also be happy to read about that.

a reply to: pl3bscheese

Me:

Okay, fair enough. So by environmental, we're talking about foreign substances breathed in or absorbed via the skin or some such. Would that be a fair statement?

You:

No. You're choosing to sidestep the obvious. Don't make me point it out for you, because you know it already. If you can't grasp the difference between a condition, a syndrome, and a disease that's your deal.

Really? Okay. Gotcha.

If you can't grasp the importance of making yourself clear on a discussion board, then that's your deal. Good to know.

a reply to: Boadicea

Except that's not what happened. You seem to be the only one who doesn't clearly understand my point so far.

originally posted by: pl3bscheese
a reply to: Layaly

Everyone knows addiction to sugar is a disease, not a choice.

The first step to riding yourself of this diseased state is to admit you're powerless (please buy my book!).

So your comment buy my book is said in a sarcastic matter. If the book saves a persons life then let him buy it. Addiction isn't a game........people die. Weather you think its a disease or not. People are trying to save their lives. Some feel their days are numbered.

a reply to: Tarzan the apeman.

Of course! I said so in my OP.

What happens in recovery is an individual learns to repattern their psyche. Some people are intelligent and self aware enough to do this all their own. Some people need instruction and reinforcement from others they trust. Yet others require isolation,the inability to access their substance of choice, and rigid structure (prison). The common denominator in those who come clean is leaving the prior lifestyle and connections associated with their poor habits and choosing to live a more healthy lifestyle. Whether that choice comes internally from within yourself, or after being conditioned sufficiently from outside influences and circumstances is irrelevant.

People get well in spite of the current models shortcomings.

a reply to: pl3bscheese

I have a predisposition to be an alcoholic and tobacco smoker as both parents and all 4 grandparents held these substance addictions.

I never had a desire to smoke or drink. Though, admittedly, I enjoyed a couple few mixed drinks when I ventured off continent last year. But I have no desire to drink alcohol. I have never smoked.

My addiction is ice water.

A person can catch tuberculosis, cancer, the AIDS, etc...one does not catch heroin addiction or alcoholism no matter what genetic markers are associated with it by causality and doctors getting grants to say "well, Jimmy's dad shot up, therefore this marker on this gene makes him more likely than Bobby down the street to shoot up."

a reply to: pl3bscheese

I'm not "everyone." And neither are you. I didn't address "everyone else." I addressed you. The OP. I gave you every opportunity to explain yourself. You chose not to. Okay.

Our words will stand on their own merit.

a reply to: Boadicea

That's correct, you're an individual who chooses confusion instead of clarity.

You would choose to misquote me, and parse words in order to manipulate than seek clarity.

Certainly not worth the time.

Addiction is not a Disease

OK, what is it? A Moral decision that can only be cured with prayer to Jesus?

That's where this thread is heading...right?

Thanks for the website!!!

a reply to: the owlbear

Can a person 'catch' Lupus, RA, non-Hodgkins Lymphoma, MS, MD, etc? So they're not diseases either?

originally posted by: pl3bscheese
a reply to: Layaly

Everyone knows addiction to sugar is a disease, not a choice.

The first step to riding yourself of this diseased state is to admit you're powerless .

Gee O Dee .. I never thought of it that way

(please buy my book!)

no thank you .. The program is free and they bring cookies

a reply to: pl3bscheese

I have not read the entire thread yet...but I will. I am going to go out on a limb right now and tell all ya'll.....especially the OP...that I am an alcoholic. I am aged 50. My mother is an alcoholic...aged 67....my uncle (father's side) was an alcoholic and coc aine addict who died before aged 60....my son....aged 28 is an alcoholic....my brother....who had a different father than I, (who was an alcoholic)...died in 2008 at aged 38....while trying to get help for his alcoholism...and still drank while taking the meds they gave him to "help"......(I can go on and on into my family tree of ALCOHOLICS...) My mother is mentally ill...my brother had the same disease and now my DAUGHTER......

I didn't start to drink "alcoholically" until I was well not my 30's....but once my brain chemistry changed....I cannot stop drinking without either loading up on benzodiazepines, my epilepsy medication, (Pheno Barbital) or I SLOWLY wean myself off.....if I stop....I will get heart palpitations and my BP goes sky high....I start to sweat and shake.....the longest I have gone off alcohol has been 110 days. Do you think I LIKE drinking? Do you think my mother does....my brother did.....

While I O believe there is a LOT of habit built into it...and the brain can form some STRONG habits.....I KNOW that my genetics play a role in my DISEASE.....my problem....whatever....and should society treat me with SHAMING because I drink? I do not go out to bars and get rowdy...I didn't abuse my kids or fight with my husband, (well...maybe a few fights with HIM...he too, comes form a LONG line of alcoholics).....

but I am pretty put off with your attitude about my DISEASE......I would give ANYTHING to just wake up and decide that I have had enough.....I WISH I could have thought it shame enough when I puke in an alley or passed out from too much drinks and wake up puking my guts out....that my liver isn't fatty and swollen and I am sick all the time and no longer can speak as eloquently as I used to...(Alcohol brain damage...along with the seizure disorder I now have.....from concussions.....from being hit by drinkers AND from my own falls from drinking)

So...I am VERY embarrassed to admit my DISEASE....but I JUST HAD to put a stop to this nonsense

by the way...rehab did;t work for me at all.....and I went three times....my husband's dad went ONCE and he's been off booze 25 years......but you can see the look in his eyes when he goes to a bar.....and he smokes enough weed at age 72 to kill an average man's lungs......

perhaps it's linked to anxiety...which..tadaaaaa...IS a disease...

sorry for the rant (and all the misspellings and autocorrections)

an alcoholic who wishes I could just "grow a pair" and stop......

a reply to: olaru12

I think what the op is saying is more or less that addiction shouldn't be treated as a medical disease that can't be overcome by simply choosing not to engage in drug abuse, whether through sheer willpower or removing environmental factors that facilitate drug abusing behavior -- that its a choice to be addicted.

If someone needs Jesus to clean up, fine, but it's still your choice whether or not to be addicted. Is this along the right lines of what you're saying op?

I always thought that disease just clearly meant an abnormality in the body that causes the cells to not be at 'ease'.

So in that sense alcohol addiction when it's at end stage or close to it fits that very definition. The body cannot live without alcohol, or medication to be used in its place. Now, that's worst case scenario, beginning stage and middle can easily be fixed. But it's a degenerative disease which most likely will cause serious damage.

a reply to: Cornczech

You can stop. Why do you think you can't? You already said you could by slowly weening off. It makes perfect sense you must substitute a benzo for alcohol in order to rid yourself of physical and psychological symptoms of alcohol. They hit the same receptor site, GABA. If someone has a serious issue with dependency of a drug that hits the GABA receptor site, they must be very careful and titrate no more than 10% less per week. Have you tried to slowly ween yourself over a season before?

Another question. In times when you successfully detoxed, what made you go back? You would blame your genetics on this? I don't understand how someone could expect to stay off drugs when they have the crutch to blame their genetics. You are most certainly at an increased risk for addiction. That doesn't mean you are doomed to remain an addict for life.

What exactly are you finding that is incorrect in my OP?

originally posted by: MaryaNoxx
a reply to: olaru12

I think what the op is saying is more or less that addiction shouldn't be treated as a medical disease that can't be overcome by simply choosing not to engage in drug abuse, whether through sheer willpower or removing environmental factors that facilitate drug abusing behavior -- that its a choice to be addicted.

Then it really does boil down to being a moral decision whether to use or not and if you become addicted; it's your own damn fault.

In some cases, I can see that...but some get addicted because of pain thru prescription drugs and then carry over to street drugs when they refuse the prescriptions. It's more complicated than just not having enough willpower.

originally posted by: olaru12

In some cases, I can see that...but some get addicted because of pain thru prescription drugs and then carry over to street drugs when they refuse the prescriptions. It's more complicated than just not having enough willpower.

Complex situations do arise which bring about addiction. It's tragic how many users of smack and meth start off from being legally prescribed pharmaceuticals. Situations change, be it insurance dropping them, or they abuse instead of use, and they can find their selves on harder illegal alternatives.

I don't think this complexity in particular situations should mask that a continued will to quit (repattern of the psyche) is the ultimate factor in success or failure.

similar to how anxiety is a disorder addiction is a disorder. disease does not seem like the right word.

addicts for many drugs and behaviors are typically dopamine based. addicts get much more reward from the addicted substance compared to their baseline.
Ever been to an AA meeting? These people are still addicts, even though they don't drink. They slam coffee and smoke like chimney's.
Addicts dopamine systems are different.

Opiate addiction is a little scarier. opiate receptos upregulate much more slowly when coming off it than dopamine receptors.