Western Canadian Liberation Front

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
This is the saddest and darkest chapters in our history, and continues to this day in how they are disparaged. For all the benefits bestowed upon the natives of this land, they have not been given their due. If it were not for their exemplary efforts in aiding the British, the Union Jack may not be flying in Canada, and I happen to love Britain's flag flying alongside our own.

Agreed. It boggles my mind at how a discussion about something of this magnitude can be occuring, and no one seems to even stop to think that they have just as much say as everyone else. They were here first, after all. They are a very important part of Canadian culture, and deserve much better than what we have given them so far.

Originally posted by rayzor11
the main problem in Canada is the absence of any alternative viewpoint or voice in our mainstream media....

we're all force-fed the same left wing drivel day after day by cocktail swinging, intellectual/elitist wanna-be's that have no concept of how anyone can possibly live outside the Beaches (Toronto for non-Ontarians)

the author of this thread shares alot of the same frustrations that the SILENT MAJORITY of Canadians are feeling coast to coast

unfortunately, to disagree with the "blue state" Beaches mentality makes all of us uneducated, redneck hicks

sound familar?

hehehe, very.

For instance, out here in the west coast US, we get called the "left coast". Not true. Alot more libertarianism here than liberalism. But in the US, we suffer similar things. Elite liberals attack anyone who lives in the country and opposes them as ignorant fascist rednecks. The nut case right wingers call us freaks, perverts, moral degenerates.

In the army, one thing I learned, is that the US is not the same country wherever you go. I have learned one big divide is the Rocky Mountains. I have nothing in common with southerners, midwesterners, Northerners, ect. Yet it seems that all the political figures that run the show come from the old east. They impose their either left or right wing views on people 3000 miles away. They simply do not realize nor care that out here, things are VERY different, we have a different society out here. Out here, its funny that you will often find liberals and conservatives in the same camps: less govornment intervention from the feds.

Conservsatives out west tend to be alot more lax, being less religous, and even supporting things like abortion and such, and liberals tend to be relaxed towards things like gun control.

Its a different world out here. Just look at ATS posters, their views, and where they come from. Its clear to me, that the far west is alot different, shares a different history and culture than the east. ceceeding from the union has actually been discussed quite a bit by California, the Pac Northwest, the Southwest, Nevada, and Idaho and Montana. And I agree. Im rather tired of having the federal govornment impose its crap on various states, bullying them around, oberturning laws their own people voted on, ect.

And it seems our neighbors to the north have the same problems. It seems the Canada is as guilty of free press supression as the US. Just the opposite of Bush tho, up there, many Canadian visitors have told me conservatives are silenced and neutered agressively, and liberal thought it crammed down their throats, without regard to the local "flavor.

Seems both countries have alot of unhappy people who wish to leave their perspective unions and go out their own way. This should be a clear message to the snotty liberals in Ottowa and the tight assed right wing nutcases in DC to wake the hell up and deal with such grievances.

But, more than likely, they will show the same lack of concern for people far from their seats of power and blow it off.

I say go for it, seperation from the two unions seems like the smartest thing to do. Cant think of a clearer message to send.

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
If it were not for their exemplary efforts in aiding the British, the Union Jack may not be flying in Canada, and I happen to love Britain's flag flying alongside our own.

And generally, when the first French colonists arrived, they survived and avoided scurvy only because the indigenous tribes helped them and provided proper food. And when the Acadians were deported from Nova Scotia in 1755, the Miq'Maq tribes hid a lot of them. Indeed, we owe them a debt of gratitude we never repaid.

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
Elite liberals attack anyone who lives in the country and opposes them as ignorant fascist rednecks. The nut case right wingers call us freaks, perverts, moral degenerates.

That's not liberals or right-wingers talking, it's politicians or spin doctors. We live in an era where people, left and right alike, have forgotten the art of nuance. After all, a lot of the biggest names in liberalism in the last 25 years have come from the country - Tom Daschle, Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton, even the new minority leader in the Senate, Harry Reid. Those liberals who call all those who live in the country "rednecks" do not have the ability to grasp the complexity and diversity of the population of a huge country like the United States. On the flipside, shrieking conservatives who call liberals or West Coast inhabitants "moral degenerates" do not have the ability to grasp the complexity of what makes those people tick, and what their set of morals are. We live in a time where we're not inclined to try to dialogue with fundamentalist Muslims and try to understand terrorism to eliminate. We just want to pound terrorists into dust. It stands to reason that a good number of conservatives and liberals would, likewise, not see any reason to try to understand their adversary - they just want to pound him into dust.

In the army, one thing I learned, is that the US is not the same country wherever you go. I have learned one big divide is the Rocky Mountains. I have nothing in common with southerners, midwesterners, Northerners, ect. Yet it seems that all the political figures that run the show come from the old east. They impose their either left or right wing views on people 3000 miles away. They simply do not realize nor care that out here, things are VERY different, we have a different society out here. Out here, its funny that you will often find liberals and conservatives in the same camps: less govornment intervention from the feds.

Remember, though, the poster boy for less government intervention came from California - Ronald Reagan. But I do agree that yours is a very diverse country. However, I don't think the East-West dichotomy is the only one. I was in California before New Year's Eve - my girlfriend is American - and we went out to lunch with her best friend and her boyfriend - who is also Canadian. He and I started talking about the language dichotomy in Canada, which is one of the main divisive factors. Meanwhile, our two American girlfriends started discussing what would be the equivalent of that factor in the U.S... and they came up with religion.

Conservsatives out west tend to be alot more lax, being less religous, and even supporting things like abortion and such, and liberals tend to be relaxed towards things like gun control.

Yes, but won't religion and tradition become an issue with a growing Latino population? After all, that's a public the Bush Republicans are working very hard to get on their side...

It seems the Canada is as guilty of free press supression as the US. Just the opposite of Bush tho, up there, many Canadian visitors have told me conservatives are silenced and neutered agressively, and liberal thought it crammed down their throats, without regard to the local "flavor."

I wouldn't say agressively neutered. The conservatives are, after all, a very powerful opposition party in Parliament. And the platform of the Liberal party these days is pretty much more conservative than it was in, say, Trudeau's day. I don't think either Western conservatives or Ontario liberals disagree on fiscal responsibility (Canada has had a budget surplus for six years in a row) or reforming the social net to eliminate wasted spending and parasites.

Seems both countries have a lot of unhappy people who wish to leave their perspective unions and go out their own way.

I don't know about "a lot". The convenient thing about the "silent majority" is that since it's silent, any party can argue that majority is on its side. Dissatisfied, yes... to the point of wanting to secede, that remains to be seen.

This should be a clear message to the snotty liberals in Ottowa and the tight assed right wing nutcases in DC to wake the hell up and deal with such grievances.

I think that in Canada at least, the message is being sent. We've had a Parliament of regions for ten years now - the Conservatives are strong in the West, the Liberals have Ontario, the Bloc Québécois has Québec, and the New Democrats have the Maritimes. Does that mean that the regions are pulling apart or that the country need break up? Strangely, on issues like federal investments in the health system, what tends to happen these days is that all the provinces gang up on Ottawa to get their agenda across...

Canada was created as a Confederation, which means more powers to the provinces. Unfortunately, in practice, it's a federation. But the differences between the provinces are growing, and I feel it'll have to revert to a looser Confederation-type government as it was at the start.

I say go for it, seperation from the two unions seems like the smartest thing to do.

As I said, I think the West would find that the East-West dichotomy isn't the only divisive factor in Canada. I don't see Manitoba or the western strip of British Columbia getting along that well with Alberta conservatives. And once the precedent of secession is created, what's to prevent a sub-region of the seceded region to separate too?

Hi Otts - in 1604 when Samuel de Champlain and Pierre Dugas (I think) set up the first settlement @ St. Croix island (between NB and Maine), I think it was the Passamaquoddy (sp) indians who befriended the colonists and tried to help them. Many died of scurvy anyway because they were unprepared for the weather etc. When the spring came they moved to warmer territory @ Port Royale, NS (now known as Annapolis Royal). The French accepted the Indians, unlike the British as far as I understand.

They have been our friends, and should be treated better.

BTW - the US/Canada maintain a replica of the first settlement of St. Croix and there is a friendship centre in Calais, Maine on the border with St. Stephen, N.B. dedicated to the history of it. Very fascinating.

Damn, its great to travel and learn history!

AlwaysLearning - Yep, I don't know how Ste.Croix island is called these days... and very good call on Champlain and Du Gua... I didn't know it was the Passaquomoddy tribe.

And yes, learning is very fun

By all means, fracture the confederation and become a EU-like entity.
Question is, where does the fracturing stop? My relatives north of the Soo have nothing but contempt for "Torontarions" telling people in the Algoma region how they should live, from gun registration to, yes, French language printed on everything.

Realist - As a Franco-Ontarian, I'm the first to admit that you can't put French everywhere in every region. Besides, Bill 8 says that the provincial government has to offer services in French "where the number justifies it". I think that in places like Kapuskasing or Hearst, where the French population is pretty heavy, it makes sense. In Sault-Ste-Marie, it might not make as much sense (from what I've heard, the population is close to zilch).

Originally posted by Otts
AlwaysLearning - Yep, I don't know how Ste.Croix island is called these days... and very good call on Champlain and Du Gua... I didn't know it was the Passaquomoddy tribe.

And yes, learning is very fun

Still called Ste. Croix. Still fresh in my memory, such a wonderful trip I had. Funny thing - at the Calais centre they had one of those audio visual presentations, you look in a window, see an antique desk and they project a film of Pierre Du Gua speaking about the expedition. It was fascinating. Days later, in Annapolis Royal was at the National Parks settlement, where there was a guy who was a tour guide, explaining about the settlement. I thought to myself that he looked SO much like the guy in the film in Calais, so I asked if it was him. He said no, but it was his TWIN brother, also an area historian!!!

It was so much fun chasing history downeast! Everywhere, too really.


[edit on 16/1/05 by AlwaysLearning]

Originally posted by Realist05
By all means, fracture the confederation and become a EU-like entity.
Question is, where does the fracturing stop? My relatives north of the Soo have nothing but contempt for "Torontarions" telling people in the Algoma region how they should live, from gun registration to, yes, French language printed on everything.

Geez, I didn't know Toronto ran the country. Wow I feel so powerful now.
That's just plain ridiculous.

[edit on 16/1/05 by AlwaysLearning]

Good comments above on the First Nations being sidelined so much. If the feds could get out of their faces and deal straight with them then perhaps they could finally emerge into their own.

Toronto is running the country? Now that truly is a funny. Toronto isn't even running Toronto, let alone Ontario.
Greater Toronto generates over 15% of the GDP of the country and it can't afford to repair the buses because over 50% (modest estimate) of its provincial and federal tax money goes elsewhere. If you were "running" and "exploiting" the country, would that be happening?

Now, there are a few bankers down on Bay Street who need their heads reorganized but that is a very separate issue. They don't have any of the public interest in mind.

That bit about Beaches liberals was hilarious too? Exactly what part of the media did they control???
CanWest-Global?
Quebecor/Sun/TVA?
CTV/BellGlobe Media?
CBC/RC?
Corus/Shaw?
Astral Media?
Thomson?
Hollinger?
...can somebody help me find the Beaches liberal media connection?
oh I got it, it must be Moses Znaimer and that crew at CHUM-CITY... even if he does live in Swansea.

quoted from Otts
"Does this diversity mean Canada can't work? I personally think it means that Canada is "condemned" to be an open society..."

Good turn of phrase, I'll take that kind of condemnation any time!


[edit on 16-1-2005 by revengeogmakhno]

I thought Ottawa ran the country?

I try not to worry about them because it's a well-known fact that bunch couldn't run a bake sale.

Duzey - meh, for me the Parliament in Ottawa is the place I take my girlfriend to see the Christmas lights and the nice neo-gothic sculptures... or the place in front of which I wait for the bus sometimes. Of course the politicians nowadays have no vision. On that I agree with you. In the end, Martin and Harper are out for votes. Where have the Lauriers and Mackenzie Kings gone to?

It's too bad. I love my city, and I hate having to see people say so many negative things about it.

It's true, Ottawa is one of the most beautiful places in Canada, except for maybe Vancouver, but I'm biased. Too bad you have so many politicians there. Everyone should go at least once. I've seen pictures of the Christmas lights, and they are very nice.

I'm kind of fond of Pearson, as well.

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
How wide is that brush of yours? Such statements are nothing but typical stereotyping of a group of people which seem to get your goat. In other words rayzor, it is a motherhood statement, levied because you have the need to place blame on others for your obvious feelings of inferiority. You would have a better chance at making your statements seem warranted if only you would support same with a reasoned analysis as to what it is these ”trendy left-wing elitists” of the beaches have done to provoke you so into spewing your guile in their direction.

Motherhood? Damn - we've got a psych major in our midst LOL. I really struck a nerve with the whole beaches reference...how about we change it to another trendy left area that prides itself in setting the moral/cultural bar for the rest of Canada...lets say Niagara on the Lake...hopefully I can paint them with the same brush w/o somehow hurting your feelings.

You are Kreskin now and can get into my mind and know what I think of America? When you attempt such statements like that with me know I am going to lob them right back at you, for what is worse rayzor, to hate another country or to hate your own, as you portray yourself?

I love my country and I do not have a hatred for the US..call me crazy...or Kreskin (love the obscure references by the way - esp the Canadian ones!) Anyway, back to our little debate...I used the US voting color similarities to prove my analogy in an earlier post, and you immediately lost your mind and went on some anti-US tangent....so that was my first hint....

I am well aware that some in the West feel frustration, this is a far cry from your earlier contention of “"blue state" Beaches mentality”” and your deliberate attempt at Americanizing this country called Canada by your myopic efforts at reducing our parties to colour code, and employing no less, a revision of the pallet. Your view of your west must also be seen through colour blind eyes, for the last time I checked, British Columbia was way out west represented in Ottawa by 22 conservatives and 14 of those metropolitan blues as you put it. Even Manitoba in the midst holds a 7-7 split. And how on earth can you suggest that small pockets rule when Ontario alone holds a higher population than all provinces to her west? So no, I do not see the similarity from any of your failed analogies, including that of the hypothetical with France, because as you can see, your little blue vs red stereotyping does not fit with this country which votes for riding representation in parliament and not the person chosen to represent that party.

See...there's the anti-US condescending tone again...but we finally agree on something! Now lets take your points a little further...the urban/metro blue vs the rural/hick red....right across Canada. I've been googling trying to find the orig map shown on the CBC that CLEARLY shows the color similarity to the US voting patterns - in fact it was the subject to the whole news piece. When I do find it, I'll post it with the story and we can continue the personal attacks at a later time.

You pinned that on yourself my friend, and set out to prove it over and over as you do with: "talk about "painting with a brush shy of a few bristles" lol...a new twist to "the uneducated, redneck masses"...now we have an inferiority complex, are uneducated about the history of Canada, and use false/irrelevant logic. Thanks for the update! Now you can put the blinders back on...." Obviously, had I been incorrect you would have told me to take the blinders off, n’est pas?

Funny - in your striving to prove your intellectual supremecy, you forgot to look up sarcasm in your handy thesaurus. Not sure the purpose of your posts other than to try to justify your elitist, pompous existence in some trivial way... I imagine your voice as a cross somewhere between Fraser and Thurston Howell the 3rd...and it sure makes em fun to read!

What are you having issues now with Americans? Please make up your mind as to whether I hate them, see them as evil or am one of them, for that very statement when put into perspective with your sweeping generalizations suggests you see them as evil.

Huh? Even I can't decipher this drivel...maybe I have to down a couple triple-choco-latte's to understand?? Sorry, but my redneck/hick a** prefers a cold beer.

Bottom line - if there really is political/moral/cultural tranquility across Canada - why is there never a referendum held on ANY major issue? Let Canadian citizens voice their opinion!

Originally posted by rayzor11Motherhood? Damn - we've got a psych major in our midst LOL. I really struck a nerve with the whole beaches reference...how about we change it to another trendy left area that prides itself in setting the moral/cultural bar for the rest of Canada...lets say Niagara on the Lake...hopefully I can paint them with the same brush w/o somehow hurting your feelings.

Change it to any area that you wish, until you have actual facts to offer, you're doing nothing more than trying to paint a Picasso on a paint by numbers canvas.

I love my country and I do not have a hatred for the US..call me crazy...

If you do, it is certainly not Canada that you love, nor the U.S, for in your zeal to support your motherhood statements, you have done nothing but insult both countries.

Anyway, back to our little debate...

What debate? I am still awaiting your stepping up to the podium with facts.

I am well aware that some in the West feel frustration, this is a far cry from your earlier contention of “"blue state" Beaches mentality”” and your deliberate attempt at Americanizing this country called Canada by your myopic efforts at reducing our parties to colour code, and employing no less, a revision of the pallet.

See...there's the anti-US condescending tone again...

Goodness boy, this country that I live in is called Canada, not the United states of America, and if you feel that my referring to America as being Americanized is condescending then you prove my point that you hold nothing but disdain for America. You live here supposedly, so comport accordingly, speak to Canada in Canadian and British terms, for that is what our political system is about, and if you don't understand it just say so. For it matters not about your little blobs of blue and red when it is evident that a riding votes for the MP that represents it best in Ottawa. And your weak point on colour scheme has already been blown to bits by just the mere mention of of the 22-14 and the 7-7 splits I provided, and you duck.

Funny - in your striving to prove your intellectual supremecy, you forgot to look up sarcasm in your handy thesaurus. Not sure the purpose of your posts other than to try to justify your elitist, pompous existence in some trivial way... I imagine your voice as a cross somewhere between Fraser and Thurston Howell the 3rd...and it sure makes em fun to read!

Striving? Why I barely have to put any effort into it, you make it all too easy for me.

Bottom line - if there really is political/moral/cultural tranquility across Canada - why is there never a referendum held on ANY major issue? Let Canadian citizens voice their opinion!

Who says there is such tranquility rayzor, and how confused are you really? Have you ever known any political system to not have any friction within it? Are you sure you are Canadian rayzor? Never a referendum? You have been babbling about and lambasting everything outside of your little conservative utopia then because you just happen to think that the Québécois just don't like you personally and want to separate from you and you alone? I strongly suggest to you that you acquaint yourself with; The Charter of Hudson's Bay; Royal proclamation 1763; the Quebec Act of 1774 and The Constutution Act, 1867. Your historical background is obviously lacking any perspective.

This post was to let the Americans and the rest of the world know that the West doesn't feel the same way about the Iraq war as Central & Eastern Canada. We are not Anti-American. We are U.S.A 's ally. We are embarrassed of all the anti - american rhetoric coming out of The East. We want to distance our selves from the left wing liberal adgenda. We have nothing in common anymore and are sick and tired of being told how to think by the communist CBC. We are ashamed of our military that the Liberals killed.
In World War II Canada had the third most powerful Navy on the planet. Now our subs don't even float.
We don't like being placed in the same group as Central & Eastern Canada.
This post wasn't for you Easterner's & French speakers. This post wasn't about welfare or minimum wage or Ontario's beaches.
And just so you know there are 275000 web pages related to Western canadian Separation on the Yahoo search engine.
There are 385 000 web related pages to Western Canadian separation on GOOGLE. 78 000 are Canadian. The whole world knows about how the East & Central Canada is raping the west. The west has all the resources.
We are the most valuable.

I for one completely got the point of your post. I just didn't happen to agree with it. I am one of those westerners, about as west as you can get without crossing water. Yes, there is a seperatist movement, but it seems more centralized in Alberta, and you just seem to think we agree. We have yogic flyers too, doesn't mean I'm signing up.

Do you honestly think we'd want to be cut off from Canada? Goodbye healthcare. Goodbye Canadian passport, money, citizenship, and in our case, Olympics. Let's take full responsibility for the First Nations claims. Lets's negotiate with them what land they will retain, and what rights they will have that no other member of our new country will have. Because Canada will not let anyone walk out without addressing the serious issues. Not for me, thanks. Yes we need better representation, but for all the feds do, my provincial govt is even worse. And Ralph's retiring so things may not always be as rosy in Alberta.

I personally know 1 person who lives in BC that supports the war . 1. And guess what, he's American, moved up here a couple years ago. Not to say they're not out there, I just never seem to meet any of them. That doesn't mean we don't hope the American soldiers are all OK, and don't want them to get hurt. You see, in BC we understand the lack of a military. I believe we may be one of the only provinces that does not have a army base. We have Esquimalt, but Chiliwack closed years ago. If anything happens here, we have to wait for you to come drag our butts out of it.

And no part of this country is any less valuable than any other. If you were going by resources, isn't the Northern region opening up? Maybe the Inuit will seperate too. Canada is a great place because we are so diverse, and to take any part out, would lessen us all.

Battle of Batoche
If you seriously think the CBC is communist then you truly are misguided. I don't like saying that but it difficult to find words to put it any other way. Perhaps you don't know what communism is. I am sure that you have not been to a communist country because then it would be obvious to you that the CBC is not in the slightest way communist. If you want to be taken seriously then you have to stop making such obviously unfounded statements such as that.

You persist in speaking as "we". The "we" you seem to be referring to is a very small but hysterically loud minority. One can point this out to you either through systematic socio-political evidence or anecdoctal evidence but no one can force you to see it. So you can go right on in that fantasy world you have built up in your head but the world won't be better for it.

Fortunately, I know Alberta very well. Approximately 80% of my very large extended entire family is in various parts of Alberta. They have lots of pickup trucks and guns but I can't think of one of them that thinks in any way like you. That is because, like most Albertans, they are capable of thinking comprehensively about things before just buying into the kind of narrow thinking that you seem to have latched onto.

You want the 3rd largest navy again? Fine, you pay for it, you find a purpose for all that hardware. In any case, if you look at the world's navies, ours is actually comparatively larger than most people think.

I really hope you are able to get out and see the world some day, relax and get to know people elsewhere and then pull down those blinders and misplaced anger you've built up.

Originally posted by BattleofBatoche
We are embarrassed of all the anti - american rhetoric coming out of The East.

Yes, because daring to show disagreement with US policy, or putting in question the wisdom of some choices the Bush administration made, automatically means one hates America. We know how that goes.

This post wasn't for you Easterner's & French speakers.

What's funny is that the Battle of Batoche was fought by FRENCH Western Métis led by Louis Riel and Gabriel Dumont. Go figure.

The whole world knows about how the East & Central Canada is raping the west.

Really? Then I'm surprised that in my travels to the U.S., Europe and Africa, not one person who heard I was Canadian backed me into a corner and demanded we stop exploiting the West. Actually... Canadians are usually admired for being peaceful and quiet.

We are the most valuable

I beg to differ. Québec has 30,000 lakes, and generates electricity not only for itself but for parts of New York State and New England as well. The West has resources, but in no way does it support the rest of the country alone.

But hey, you've already said that you don't like Easterners or French-speakers... so I guess I have nothing left to say to you.