Benzodiazepines.

originally posted by: liveandlearn

originally posted by: Morrad
a reply to: liveandlearn

Also have maintained a script for Clonipin for 11 years. However, never took it regularly...just when needed and never the dose prescribed...quarter to half a milligram so never had a problem.

Clonipin is the most potent benzodiazepine. 1mg is the equivalent of 20mg diazepam.

Wow. Thanks for the info. I didn't know that. Maybe that is why I never needed the full dose.

My last prescription is from May 2014 and I still have half of a 30 pill prescription left, so I really think I am okay.

Really appreciate the information though. Seems I need to do a little more research. Next anxiety attach will definitely go for only 1/4 a mg first.

Just try real hard not to make my Mistake with kpins, anticipate If and when you May run out and taper down to as low as a
Dose as infrequently as possible. That way you should avoid a terrible cold turkey withdrawal situation.

I just took my last little peace of klonopin and expect to feel the withdrawals in about 72-100 hours.

That was the case last time, I was really freaked out they could show up that far out after discontinuing.

All this is variable though, I don't think anything about benzos can be predicted or pinpointed with accuracy.

originally posted by: liveandlearn

originally posted by: rickymouse
a reply to: GoShredAK

You have given some thoughtful advice Rickymouse, however I disagree with the following

SSRIs may have been a better choice for the stress than the benzos.

They are just as hard to come off of and can lead to a worse depression then what they were taken for.

I was on them for several months and told my dr I wanted off as I felt okay. He said reduce for 3-4 days. I knew that was wrong so worked out a titration plan by gradually decreasing SSRIs and substituting trycylics (tricyclics are an old antidepressent that actually replaces the seratonin). Took it to a pharmacist for an opinion and was told the plan was good but needed to be extended about a month longer (I had it worked for six weeks). It worked. Only 1 bad day.

GoShredAK

Also have maintained a script for Clonipin for 11 years. However, never took it regularly...just when needed and never the dose prescribed...quarter to half a milligram so never had a problem. Listening to you I am very glad. I think I would never come off if I had to go through what you describe now.

I did have an advantage in knowing drs over prescribe doses, mainly due to pharmaceutical companies inadequate testing and dose recommendations. They also give 'one size fits all' doses once you get past 12 yrs. Being a small person I already knew from experience to cut back on whatever they recommend and work my way up if needed. Plus, I dealt with this when a nurse in post anesthesia.

Your post is a great warning for people, whether benzodiazepines or other meds, esp psycho active ones. You have done a service. I hope you have support at home to help you through this.

Thanks so much for sharing your experience. What you said to me at the end was really cool too.

I'm glad to hear you were armed with knowledge and knew well enough not to get hooked.

Klonopins are freaky, I've taken upwards of 5+mgs for a few days and thought I
Felt normal, only to eventually awake from a fog realizing I had been a different person the entire time. Literally loose chunks of time, forever.

originally posted by: Morrad
a reply to: GoShredAK

I can relate to everything in the OP. I started taking Zopiclone 20 years ago for insomnia as it is a nonbenzodiazepine hypnotic and was marketed as a non-addictive designer sleeping drug. It has now been shown to be as addictive as benzodiazepines. It was not prescribed as I lived in a country where it could be purchased over the counter.

I am in the process of a slow wean. I calculated that I had been taking the equivalent of 50-70mg diazepam a day. It has taken 18 months and I am now down to equivalent diazepam dose of 8mg. I have read that the last 5mg is the hardest. I tried large dose tapering initially which caused derealization. I found this frightening and incapacitating.

My motivation has increased since learning that Zopiclone is classed as one of the Z-drugs which are known to be carcinogenic and also have an adverse effect on the immune system. It is not available in the US but the precursor is under the brand name Lunesta. I would advise anyone to avoid it like the plague. Zolpiderm (Ambien), another Z drug is supposedly given to US troops prior to combat missions in war zones to aid sleep. I have read this on several websites although I have no idea if this is true.

What I find very wrong is that it's extremely easy to get prescribed benzos yet extremely difficult to get that same doctor to take you seriously and taper you off the drug far too rapidly.

You might find this interesting.

Rapid withdrawal and misprescribing of a benzodiazepine leads to £1.35m settlement for Luke Montagu, CEP co-founder

You have got this! It's gonna be rough and that's not fair, but it sounds like you have come a long way. I feel for you majorly, just keep looking for that light at the end of the tunnel.

Especially if your doing somewhat ok and not in complete misery, you may be doing wonders for your brain and are on a sure track to healing.



That is interesting there at the end, big pharma needs there Butts kicked, seems like we are meant to stay perpetually sick, healing is not profitable.

And don't ever feel bad, be easy on the taper. You have been dealt with something Im sure many humans could not have endured, but here you are! Don't give up.

originally posted by: penroc3
a reply to: GoShredAK

benzos are a great tool if used right and supervisvised by a comitant doctor.


thay have saved me no B.S years of sleepless nights. i have mild to mod. PTSD so its nice to not be looking at people hands and going to 4th of july. and just having that moment of calm.

all medication comes with side effects.

Oh yeah, there's all kinds of great tools that should only be used by certain people and at certain times.

Put that tool in the wrong hands though, and with no warning?.....not cool.

Xanax is like magic, but it's more magical to master our thoughts and rewire ourselves that way Instead.

Xanax should be reserved for the most extreme situations, which is definitely not the case and
Never has been.

If I had a handle on it as you do, or maybe felt your PTSD, of have it with me
At all times. I enjoy hearing accounts such as yours where there's no horror story Involved.


ETA: I've read from few sources that psylocibin mushrooms have the ability to vanquish PTSD and other heavy anxiety disorders. Could be total bs, could be a horrible idea, but just throwing it out there.

I take the generic brand of Xanax with no problems. It helps take the edge off.

originally posted by: Night Star
I take the generic brand of Xanax with no problems. It helps take the edge off.

You mean alprazolam right? Yeah that's what I used to get and have always seen. Same stuff, seriously powerful.

You must take them properly I assume? as needed?

Do you know what strength?

If you happen to take alprazolam daily at any dosage and stop abruptly with no issues then you are a very lucky miracle person.

I used to get 1mg alprazolam and maintained for a long time. I maintained for quite awhile on high doses before experiencing my first withdrawal. Benzos do have potential to break you down over time.

Then again it all depends on individual mind, dosage, frequency, and duration of usage.

When I was young I could handle 10 mgs of alprazolam, today, 1mg could throw me back into withdrawal.

originally posted by: rickymouse
I don't think they prescribed any of this class of drug for my epilepsy. None of the names look familiar. I didn't like any of the AED drugs effect on my thinking. Their effect on my body was more of an issue though.

I tapered off the drugs I had and quit all together, switching between the classes of the AEDs was complicated, weining off of one and starting another. It took over a month to get switched over completely. I do not know how to cure the addiction to these if you get physically addicted.

Try eating a boiled egg or two for breakfast in the morning every day and cut back on consumption of sugar, it will help the anxiety part. Eggs have choline, DMG, betablocker, and a few other calming chemistries in them which can help with anxiety. But if you have an egg allergy, you might get all messed up. Oatmeal or cheerios with not too much sugar is ok to a point.

Anxiety is usually caused by an imbalance in the brain chemistry which is directly tied to the foods we eat. There are exceptions, but the number of people with genetic problems causing enzyme imbalances are small. You just have to figure out what you have a problem with. I'll give you a hint. What they tout as good food to eat may not be good food for everyone if they cannot detox the chemistry involved. Nobody has the enzymes to detox everything, most people cannot detox half of the foods properly if eaten in excess. Too much tyramine chemistry is not good but not enough or improper balance is just as bad.

If you have anxiety, eat something chocolate, the copper in it supplies a necessary mineral in it to metabolize the tyramines. This can help sometimes to stop stress. If it gets worse, than you need more tyramines if the copper level is too high, eat something aged or fermented.

A long time ago I came to the realization that most medications are just masks that cover the symptoms of a particular ailment, while the body continues whatever unhealthy habit is causing the problem in the first place.

Doctors should be educating patients about the power of healthy food, and healthy exercise of the body and mind.

In this society we prefer to jump straight to the med and continue living how we want.

Medication? Or lifestyle change? Side effects? Or well being?

Obviously this is done on purpose, some people far from here have no interest in healthy, enlightened, disease-free, strong and happy people.

People just well enough to make it to work but sick enough to die off early and not do much before hand, now that group is much easier to control.

originally posted by: and14263
a reply to: GoShredAK

I've lost whole months because of these.

Amazing and horrendous at the same time.

I take them for flying. But where can you ever buy just 2? They come in packs of 28.

You know what's crazy? I used to be disappointed with only two benzos of any sort. My tolerance must have been through the roof.

Now most recently after going through five days of moderate, very unpleasant withdrawal, I actually did acquire two 1mg klonopin. I took .25 mgs from one of them and proceeded to space them out for about a week. Completely withdrawal free.

What I used to laugh at ten years ago, has a profound effect on me today. Like mystic said earlier, messing with the GABA receptors is tricky.

Hospitals use a drug called flumazenil, a benzodiazepine antagonist, in acute overdoses (like naloxone is used for narcotic overdoses). There have been reports that flumazenil can reset the benzodiazepine receptors following long term use which stops withdrawal symptoms. Unfortunately it can only be given intra-venously.

In Italy, the gold standard for treatment of high-dose benzodiazepine dependency is 8–10 days of low dose, slow infusion of flumazenil. One addiction treatment centre in Italy has used flumazenil to treat over 300 patients who were dependent on high doses of benzodiazepines (up to 70 times higher than conventionally prescribed) with doctors being one of their most common patients.

Epileptic patients who have become tolerant to the anti-seizure effects of the benzodiazepine clonazepam became seizure-free for several days after treatment with 1.5 mg flumazenil. Similarly, patients who were dependent on high doses of benzodiazepines (median dosage 333 mg diazepam-equivalent) were able to be stabilised on a low dose of clonazepam after 7–8 days of treatment with flumazenil.

Flumazenil has been tested against placebo in dependent subjects, whereby typical benzodiazepine effects were reversed with little to no withdrawal symptoms. Flumazenil was shown to produce significantly less withdrawal symptoms than saline in a randomized, placebo-controlled study with benzodiazepine dependent subjects. Additionally, relapse rates were much less during subsequent follow-up.

Several studies have shown enhancement of the benzodiazepine binding site after chronic treatment with flumazenil where sites have become more numerous and uncoupling/down-regulation of GABAA has been reversed. After long-term exposure to benzodiazepines, GABAA receptors become down-regulated and uncoupled. Growth of new receptors and recoupling after prolonged flumazenil exposure has also been observed. It is thought this may be due to increased synthesis of receptor proteins.

Flumazenil was found to be more effective than placebo in reducing feelings of hostility and aggression in patients who had been free of benzodiazepines for 4–266 weeks. This may suggest a role for flumazenil in treating protracted benzodiazepine withdrawal symptoms.

Wikipedia

A British study supports this as well.

Benzodiazepine dependence and its treatment with low dose flumazenil

a reply to: GoShredAK

Some of the medications actually correct some of the problems with improper metabolisms. But as soon as the medicine is removed, the problem is still there. A person should actually observe how foods make them feel. One problem is that most times the problems come hours after we eat and we blame it on other foods. Some foods cause imbalances which don't happen until long term consumption occurs. This is one of the problems with meds, a month or two or even more after the medicine is introduced a deficiency results. People and doctors need to understand that. Our bodies can buffer things for a while and sometimes misdiagnoses are made because symptoms are often the same of many different imbalances or deficiencies.

A major problem is B12 malabsorption in older people. The B12 tests perfectly fine in blood samples yet it is in the wrong form to be utilized for certain processes. If dehydration is present, the amount of blood cells will also look right, but volume is reduced and no anemia is present. But because of the low volume people can get dizzy spells if the blood vessels dialate and the heart does not speed up. Now salt levels may seem normal but with less blood, salt levels should be on the higher side. If the people drink coffee, they pee more and will be a bit low on blood and seem fine until they get a spell and fall. The problem is not the B12, it is to either help with the enzymes to convert it to a usable form or to supply a b12 of the converted type orally or by shot. There are three types but none will be given unless b12 levels of blood are low even though the type is not usable.

That was just one example, one of many situations that could possibly cure a problem. In the above situation because b12 in the right form is needed to actually fix the issue, the other forms won't fix anything. They often treat the symptoms but do not fix the problem when you go to a doctor. fixing the problem means you don't have to make another appointment and treatment lasts for years if done properly and only requires an occasional supplement as treatment.

There are hundreds of these things, but the medical profession often turns a blind eye to guarantee that they have enough business to supply work for themselves and their coworkers and employees so they can retain their way of life.

Is this an evil practice? Well, these workers need to make a living so it depends on your point of perspective.

What is good for some is bad for others.

I prefer to stay out of making judgement, I just want to get better and stay better when I have a problem.

Man............since my last post I've been feeling pretty poor. Ill. Debilitated. Even spent an afternoon in the ER.

I've been 100% benzo & (DOC) free and this is the first time I've felt ok. Not to say I won't feel terrible later, but I may have beaten this situation.

I posted on the quake threads a few times, that was easy since I felt the 7.1 (or whatever it's been officially downgraded/upgraded to), but I've had no desire to come back here until now.

Thank you to everybody here of being non judgemental and supportive.

Hopefully I got this. Any positive energy/words/prayers are more than welcome. I used to really believe in that stuff.

a reply to: GoShredAK

Congrats, keep with it, bro.

Every time you get that urge, kick it in the teef and point your consciousness elsewhere.

You got this!!

a reply to: GoShredAK

I think you are amazing to have achieved what you've done!!!

Just making the decision to begin the process of weaning down is beyond me right now...

...I have been on 1 mg of Alprazolam (taken as prescribed for sleep at night) for just over ten years now -

- and while I'm scared to death about what it is probably doing to my brain, I am desperately freaked at the idea of trying to do without it...

...but at 52 years old, I know I can't just keep taking it for the 20 to 30 years left of my life.

At any rate, I think you have much reason to be proud of yourself, and I will 'send up' prayers/positive energy for your continued success!

a reply to: lostgirl

If you have not looked up "the Ashton manual" please do.

You have to find an understanding doctor or phsych and cross over to a long acting benzo like Valium. Xanax is the strongest and fastest half life.

Taper with diazepam (Valium) and live as healthily as possible.

I am now 13 "post jump" total discontinuation. I am just starting to feel optimistic and normal. This is a miracle because I abused my stuff at near fatal levels multiple times and benzo withdrawal can supposedly last a year or more. The protracted acute symptoms anyway.

1mg as needed as somewhat low, however a decade or longer is pretty long, same amount of time I've been on benzos......

I think you should adhere to the Ashton manual and you can be healed and benzo free within a year. JUST DON'T STOP COLD TURKEY! Please.

But ya stopping is wise.

I'm not a doctor blah blah blah. I don't care about disclaimers, I know I know more or am more honest the every practitioner I have ever encountered, regarding this subject of course....

Good luck! Some people have come back from much higher doses and for longer!

My bad withdrawals have only seemed last 13 days! It Does not have to be a horror story. Look up dr Ashton.

Thanks for stopping by. You are ok

I only say the above because I have an obvious chip on my shoulder which i need personally. I am aware however that doctors are just doing their jobs, I am also aware that it was my own ignorance and mental weakness that were the foundation and ultimate cause of what I have been through.

I have no animosity towards the Individuals, just the system.

I know it's broken for sure now, for people like me at Least.

About seven days Into my withdrawals I was terrified I was going to have a seizure, so I went the the ER and was told I was In no danger. Given my timeframe and accumulated usage I could have just been starting the acute phase and still very much in Danger. They gave me a strong Benadryl which actually magnified my insomnia.

That would make at least a dozen instances where I was prescribed something that was unfit for a benzo addict and would only worsen my anxiety. Still, After that, as a last resort I made an appointment with a phsych doctor. I actually went as see her two days ago.

Thank God at this time nearly all my symptoms have passed and my old personality is flooding back Into being!

I was shocked because I thought this Individual would be understanding, but no, just like many before her she didn't listen to my story at all and seemed oddly motivated to prescribe me an antidepressant.

This was the nail In the coffin for me and I am now ready to fully embrace this pill free life and stop worrying about myself.

Feels good. It has been, and still is brutal and difficult, but so damn worth it.

I have to double back and express my gratitude for your kindness and encouraging words.

Thank you so much.

Your entire reply here, especially the very last bit is the kind of stuff that brings tears to my eyes.

You are so cool for that and are now firmly in my prayers and In the range of my positive wishes from now on. You have got this! You have plenty of time though It sounds like while you may have developed a dependency it is absolutely beatable. Beating it should ultimately help with the anxiety and/or sleep issues too.

Don't be afraid! As long as you have care you can take a long gradual time tapering and greatly minimize discomfort.

However I am proud to be living proof that its fully possible to stop abruptly after years of heavy abuse (very dangerous and not recommended if you can help it) and make it to he other side healed, happy and stronger. Tapering Is the proven way out, but many of us he cut off and have no choice but to face it. If that is the case I believe and tapering is beneficial, and slightly softer and safer (it wont feel easy at first! its quite intense, but that is normal and signals healing!) then straight cold turkey.

These trials, I feel have actually given me he ability to fully understand and control my anxiety. In the beginning anxiety controlled me so tightly I spent 90% of my waking hours dwelling on negativity and stressing to the point of manifesting strong physical symptoms.

It felt like I would never be the same. It was overpowering. Yet here I am, able to honestly claim a sense of genuine optimism.

I hope to post my success story all over the net because all you can find is horror stories concerning benzo withdrawal. Reading these accounts scared me worse than anything and had me convinced I would be suffering for months on end. At times I was afraid I had permanent brain damage, sometimes I honestly thought I may die. I'm glad I fought through that, and I will again if God forbid I must do so again.

It's not healthy for someone going through this to read all that doom. It's valuable and critical to be knowledgable about what your up against but positive thinking is so crucial so once we learn its time to try and read only good news. It's so Important to learn though because I have never met a single professional who understands benzo withdrawal, nor have any of those professionals warned me of what can happen. Either not many learn much more than the basic info on benzos or the majority of them are consciously being dishonest and have a disturbing lack of care for others. Regardless it's a broken system and needs serious reform.

I have earned the ability, Through experience, to say that those online stories do not apply to everybody and conquering this daunting challenge is far more obtainable than the Internet has it.

Kind of a rant up there. I was just writing fluidly with my thoughts.

I'm going through a lot of recollection as me GABA restore to normal levels. It feels like being reborn in a way

Double post

Even more encouragement for anyone struggling with more than just benzos.

Same story. Healing is possible no matter how far you may have gone.

Not to violate T&Cs I can assure all that I did just about everything I could to ruin myself, lose myself, lose my family, lose everything that is good In life. Benzos were the base of many dangerous binges of all sorts. Yet I am here today, still healing, still at risk, but not damaged!

I did it through faith, will, and perseverance. My tools have been nutrition, cultivating positive outlook in the face of despair, and exercise.

My life is still In shambles. I lost my job, I am quite poor, this winter has been very dark and cold, i am uncertain of how I will provide for my Wife, son, and newborn daughter (2 months away! )

It's scary, this world seems a scary place to raise children these days. My wife is my world and she needs the real me. I am dang lucky she's stuck around and had my back this whole time. I've got a lot, a lot, a lot of work to do.

For some reason none of that gets me down though.

a reply to: GoShredAK

Congratulations on the upcoming baby! And your wife really is a saint- I can say that without knowing details! I'm glad you appreciate her. Be sure to tell her - if you haven't. It can make a world of difference to hear "thank you for all you have struggled through ".

Stay strong! I have faced some really dark points, feeling lost and hopeless about my family's future. But we have shelter, food and many more things that so many in the world call luxury. That helps me keep above the water.

a reply to: GoShredAK

Yeah TBH they come in packs of 28 - the night before the flight a bottle of wine and 3 blue ones, another when I wake up, another bottle of wine and a couple more. Then if I wake on the plane, a glass of wine or a beer and perhaps one more.

So yeah, 2 really would work but given the option I take more.

Next time I fly my Mrs will be fairly heavily pregnant and the 3 year old will need entertaining so perhaps this is the opportunity to do it without medication.