Is the 'Book of Revelation' originally a Jewish Text that was later doctored by 'Christians' ?

originally posted by: hounddoghowlie
a reply to: Gnosisisfaith

How many Apostles are there? Not counting judas

what's that some sort of Gnostic trick question?
the original number was 12, then fell to 11 until they picked Matthias to take judas place. there is only one place where that Matthias was said to have been with Jesus from his baptistism, that is in Acts.

Paul was never called a apostle by any of the twelve, he was ordained to ministry, in Acts 13, none of the Gospels, Epistle of the twelve in the new testament never calls him a apostle.

he made the claim on his own.

so if you want the original number it was 12 then 13 all together, counting Matthias.

There are Apostles and apostles. an apostle is basically an (early) evangelist. the disciples became apostles upon Christ's death. Though even before there are verses in the gospels themselves that indicate the church already had some organizational structure going.

each of the 12 Apostles had as many as 72 Apostles under them. It is how the Church spread so rapidly.

In modern times there are still denominations that consider themselves apostles.

originally posted by: Gnosisisfaith
a reply to: stormbringer1701

Atleast I know for a fact your an idiot, you judt said vjudas wasn't an Apostle? Wow so that whole casting lots thing to replace him, just for show? Idiots

The gospels, you know, that part of the NT you allegedly find authentic, do not refer to Jesus's disciples as apostles until after Jesus was crucified and resurrected. Judas died before then. Since Judas died before the disciples were called apostles he was no apostle. Apostle means things. Judas did not survive to do those things.

biblehub.com...

phoebe meets the definition of apostle or deaconess or prostatis.

and

Pricilla and aquilla:

en.wikipedia.org...

en.wikipedia.org...

***** ATTENTION ALL MEMBERS *****

Go after the ball and not the player. Further name calling and lack of civility will be met with post removals and posting bans. If you find that you are unable to post without calling another member names, we recommend that you log off and try again another day.

Thanks In Advance.

***** DO NOT REPLY TO THIS POST *****

a reply to: stormbringer1701

see what Peter said about who was a Apostles in my edit, and look at the question asked. clearly he was trying to trick me into saying Paul was one.

those that call themselves Apostles who weren't with Jesus, are not following what Peter said were apostles. disciples would be a better word for those that took their faith in salvation through Jesus.
further more, if we were to just go by those that were with Jesus, we can say there were more than we know. just that 12 had the title Apostle. because there was at least one other than Matthias who was with them, they choose between two, Barsabbas /Justus, and Matthias were the two picked to choose from.

a reply to: Gnosisisfaith

The preserved word of God is written in 6th grade English

Look again

1John 2:18 ¶ Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that(hoti) antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

"that Antichrist" is a singular tense and the fact that the use the deomonstarted conjuction "that" lets us know he is speaking of an individual. and John is saying they knew that antichrist, a person, a man, will come. The context of the singular use stops at the comma.

"many antichrists" is the plural and he calls those and defines those that are antichrist in the rest of his uses of the word antichrist.

John talks of both the man, the beast the antichrist, and the many antichrists that were at that time and defined them.

1John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2John 1:7 ¶ For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

The fact that I can connect that antichrist with a man, also known as the beast shows the superiority of the preserved word of God I hold in my hands has all the words of God and all understanding.

oops

originally posted by: hounddoghowlie
a reply to: stormbringer1701

see what Peter said about who was a Apostles in my edit, and look at the question asked. clearly he was trying to trick me into saying Paul was one.

those that call themselves Apostles who weren't with Jesus, are not following what Peter said were apostles. disciples would be a better word for those that took their views from the 12.

further more, if we were to just go by those that were with Jesus, we can say there were more than we know. just that 12 had the title Apostle. because there was at least one other than Matthias who was with them, they choose between two, Barsabbas /Justus, and Matthias were the two picked to choose from.

and the greek word apostle (literally) is a messenger, emissary, missionary. in that it is rather like the greek word for angel. though of course it is only a linguistic coincidence. Paul was an apostle because he was sent by the primary Apostles.

For this reason I disagree with the assertion that anyone not named by Peter was improperly calling themselves an apostle. Anyone authentically called by the church or by God to deliver a message, teach, preach or as a missionary is an apostle.

Apostle: biblehub.com...

apostolos: a messenger, one sent on a mission, an apostle
Original Word: ἀπόστολος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: apostolos
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-os'-tol-os)
Short Definition: an apostle, a messenger, an envoy, a delegate
Definition: a messenger, envoy, delegate, one commissioned by another to represent him in some way, especially a man sent out by Jesus Christ Himself to preach the Gospel; an apostle.

Angel: biblehub.com...

down a little in the page:

32 ággelos – properly, a messenger or delegate – either human (Mt 11:10; Lk 7:24, 9:52; Gal 4:14; Js 2:25) or heavenly (a celestial angel); someone sent (by God) to proclaim His message.

a reply to: hounddoghowlie

But Paul not only met the resurrected Jesus Chrsit, he was called by him, he was also taught by him and was sent by Jesus Christ.

Acts 9:1 ¶ And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.
3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

Gal 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.

1Co 11:23 ¶ For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, . . .

Acts 20:24 But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.

Roms 1:1 ¶ Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

1Cor 1:17 ¶ For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

Eph 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

luke 10:1

After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.

By the literal definition above these are also disciples and would be apostles. assuming none of the twelve primary apostles were among them (and it is reasonable to assume that at the very least not all of the twelve were among these 70) then there were at least 82 disciples and possibly as many apostles.


And it would have been from a pool of people like these that Judas's replacement would have been drawn from. Mathias was not just some random schmo off the street. he was fully trained in the doctrine of Christ's ministry.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn


The preserved word of God is written in 6th grade English

This is true. However; John at least and arguably much of the bible is written at three levels of understanding. A very basic easily digestible message, an intermediate level, and a mystery or advanced level.

Incidentally poor ol' Judas did not commit suicide. he had a lot of help. additionally He repented so it is very likely he isn't going to hell either.

The forensics surrounding Judas's death make it unlikely he accomplished it himself. He tried to return the silver and was rebuffed. since it was likely he would reveal to the public the plot, the Sanhedrin probably killed him. he was hanged and he was completely gutted. you cannot hang and gut yourself at the same time and not enough time had elapsed before he was discovered to allow for decomposition to allow the entrails to burst out of the corpse like that no matter how hot the weather may have been.

a reply to: stormbringer1701

hey i didn't say it Peter did, he didn't say anyone that listens to me, or any of the 12, he said those that were with Jesus and them from the baptism to the ascension. if you remember Jesus sent out 70 before he left for Jerusalem.

remember what i said about having the title

Luke 10 1-13 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
The Seventy Sent Out 10 Now after this the Lord appointed [a]seventy others, and sent them in pairs ahead of Him to every city and place where He Himself was going to come. 2 And He was saying to them, “The harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few; therefore beseech the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into His harvest. 3 Go; behold, I send you out as lambs in the midst of wolves. 4 Carry no money belt, no bag, no shoes; and greet no one on the way. 5 Whatever house you enter, first say, ‘Peace be to this house.’ 6 If a [c]man of peace is there, your peace will rest on him; but if not, it will return to you. 7 Stay in [d]that house, eating and drinking [e]what they give you; for the laborer is worthy of his wages. Do not keep moving from house to house. 8 Whatever city you enter and they receive you, eat what is set before you; 9 and heal those in it who are sick, and say to them, ‘The kingdom of God has come near to you.’ 10 But whatever city you enter and they do not receive you, go out into its streets and say, 11 ‘Even the dust of your city which clings to our feet we wipe off in protest against you; yet [f]be sure of this, that the kingdom of God has come near.’ 12 I say to you, it will be more tolerable in that day for Sodom than for that city.

then further down in the chapter.
remember what i said about disciples.

Luke 10 23 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
23 Turning to the disciples, He said privately, “Blessed are the eyes which see the things you see, 24 for I say to you, that many prophets and kings wished to see the things which you see, and did not see them, and to hear the things which you hear, and did not hear them.”

it was clear he was talking to other people in the chapter and they are called disciples not apostles.
plus if you reas the end of chapter 9

Luke 9 :51-62 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
51 When the days were approaching for His [ad]ascension, He [ae]was determined to go to Jerusalem; 52 and He sent messengers on ahead of Him, and they went and entered a village of the Samaritans to [af]make arrangements for Him. 53 But they did not receive Him, because [ag]He was traveling toward Jerusalem. 54 When His disciples James and John saw this, they said, “Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them?” 55 But He turned and rebuked them, [[ah]and said, “You do not know what kind of spirit you are of; 56 for the Son of Man did not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them.”] And they went on to another village. Exacting Discipleship

57 As they were going along the road, someone said to Him, “I will follow You wherever You go.” 58 And Jesus said to him, “The foxes have holes and the birds of the [ai]air have [aj]nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay His head.” 59 And He said to another, “Follow Me.” But he said, “Lord, permit me first to go and bury my father.” 60 But He said to him, “Allow the dead to bury their own dead; but as for you, go and proclaim everywhere the kingdom of God.” 61 Another also said, “I will follow You, Lord; but first permit me to say good-bye to those at home.” 62 But Jesus said to him, “No one, after putting his hand to the plow and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.”

it's that way all through the New Testament, when he speaks to the 12 they are called the apostles, when others are there they are called disciples.

I agree with all of that but after the risen Christ charges the disciples to go out and preach they are thereafter referred to as apostles. If these 70 are disciples as well and they subsequently preach organize or establish churches they are apostles too

remember the definition of (greek) apostelos.

Strong's Concordance
apostolos: a messenger, one sent on a mission, an apostle
Original Word: ἀπόστολος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: apostolos
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-os'-tol-os)
Short Definition: an apostle, a messenger, an envoy, a delegate
Definition: a messenger, envoy, delegate, one commissioned by another to represent him in some way, especially a man sent out by Jesus Christ Himself to preach the Gospel; an apostle.

if i send you out on a burger run you are my apostle.

when he sent these men and when the apostles sent other men out it was to do stuff at their destination; to prepare the way for Christ or to gather information or to arrange places to stay or whatever they were disciples and then if they continued at the time of the apostolic charge and they were apostles. If they were converted afterward and fulfilled a similar function they were apostles. but if the bible called them all apostles it would get confusing.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

there is no evidence that he ever met or saw Jesus, he only heard him. Paul even says so.
he said on the road he saw a light, and heard a voice. and in his visions at least none that i can remember he never once says he saw Jesus.

was it Jesus? i take as faith that it was. but like others when ever i read Paul's writings, much of what i hear is a man named Paul, not Jesus or God. he does sometimes sounds as if he is speaking as Jesus/ God would.

originally posted by: stormbringer1701

originally posted by: ChesterJohn


The preserved word of God is written in 6th grade English

This is true. However; John at least and arguably much of the bible is written at three levels of understanding. A very basic easily digestible message, an intermediate level, and a mystery or advanced level.

...correction, translations are written in (6th grade) English, or French, or German, or Romanian...

Å99

Yes and no. The book of revelation or parts of it "its an amaglamation of many prophicies" are way older than Judasim

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Stop Being a worm I said revelations never uses the word anti christ. The beast has nothing to do with that word. So keep quoting john, but it's not talking about the Beast. My point is that you DIDN'T know that and used anti Christ when you should've said beast. A rookie mistake.

a reply to: stormbringer1701
Aren't you the genius that said judas wasn't an Apostle. So you outrank Jesus, who names all twelve as apostles before he dies? Don't bother responding I'm looking for people that REALLY know their bibles, not ameteurs. I definitely wont be reading anything you post, as you sound like you know what your talking about, and even had me fooled. But not after that.

a reply to: Akragon

I did know that but thank you. I think people put Paul above Jesus sometimes, I can't see that they are reading the same book sometimes