Faith vs. Works in Christianity: The Problem of the Book of James

originally posted by: ketsuko
For someone who doesn't believe, you spend an awful lot of time complaining about Him.

I don't complain about god, because I have no belief in gods. I do dislike when the religious attempt to sway the progress of humanity, or decide what should be education based on their beliefs, or indoctrinate children, or kill in the name of their gods.

You're mistaken in your analysis of my posts.

originally posted by: ketsuko
But for what it's worth, I don't see why it should matter that much to you either.

This topic? It doesn't really matter to me. I was just posting my view on it.

originally posted by: Ghost147
As an Atheist, my opinion is probably less weighted.

However, if the christian god were as divinely loving as many claim for him to be, I would say that faith need not apply to be granted access to heaven. Simply making an honest effort at being kind, giving, fair, loving, and with a lack of prejudice to all of humanity, those qualities would likely be the ticket to heaven.

I don't see why a loving god would send a baby to hell simply because it didn't have enough time here on earth to make a conscious decision to follow a faith in Christianity.

I don't see why a loving god would send a person born in a geographical location where christianity wasn't existent, or at least populous, to hell simply because they were born in an area where christianity wasn't readily available.

I don't see why a loving god would send a nonbeliever, or a follower of another faith to hell, despite that individual being honest, kind, fair, giving, loving, and holding no prejudice with the sole reason being that they did not believe he existed.

Not everyone on earth is given an equal chance to follow christianity, an intelligent, all knowing, all powerful, forgiving, loving god wouldn't have those traits if faith was the only thing needed to access heaven.

Furthermore, I also don't see why a loving god would consider any action here on Earth, carried out by a being who's lifespan is more than likely less than 80 years, to equate to an infinite, endless, eternity's worth of pain and suffering after they were to die to be a suitable punishment.

Why would a loving, caring, forgiving god even create a hell in the first place?

Just my thoughts.

The way into heaven technically is to follow the law without ever once transgressing. This is possible but no human that ever lived (that was not named Yeshua) ever managed to do it. But the law also provides a way out both the legal frame work of Judaic law as it applies to the form of a trial and execution of judgement and on the sacrificial laws. The Law of the old covenant means that if someone is punished for a crime or pays a blood price no one else may be punished for the same infraction. Jesus took on all the sins of the world as he was nailed to the cross. Having been perfect he fulfilled the absolute definition of a sacrifice; that it be without blemish. As his father sent him to do this he was a sacrifice. The prefigure for this was Abram and Isaac which was described as a sacrifice of a son by a father as well.

So God found a way to both have children who had the requisite freewill to love him by choice and to save them from his quality of absolute (everything) Justice or Perfection. However, because we have freewill this gift is not automatic. We must choose it by believing in His sent Savior and showing sincerity of that belief by being as obedient as possible to the word.

It sounds harsh; and the trinity is a bit of a murky concept, but God the father is also the son. So God did as he had commanded mankind to do even to the death.

There is a principle of leadership: Never order your subordinates to do something you have not done or would not do yourself. Don't have one standard for yourself and one for everyone else. God fulfilled that maxim to the letter even to death on the cross. He ordered us to obey the law to the standard of no error. He did that as Christ. He ordered all of mankind to be born of woman in the flesh and to die in the flesh. He did that as Christ as well.

originally posted by: DrogoTheNorman
If you read the New Testament thoroughly, it would appear that faith in Jesus is sufficient to be "saved". But wait...what about the book of James that seems to say that faith is not sufficient, that works also are needed for salvation.

I realize this subject has been debated for centuries. If you wish to comment, please cite evidence for why you believe the way you do.

S&F for starting the thread!

Faith is a gift from God. If you have faith you automatically do works without thinking about it by attempt to live a holy life, by spreading the "Good News" (The Gospel), have a charitable heart, help the elderly, visit those who are sick.... etc.....

Get the picture? No works.....no faith....because TRUE faith motivates you. It is a burning desire to do his will (GOD's) will not yours. You are his servant.....serving God as a mortal person in a physical world.

It is not that hard to understand.

Do you have faith?

This was addressed by Jesus:

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?” (John 11:25-26)

Faith will help lead your soul after death, but if you live according to that faith in your lifetime, you undergo a metaphysical transformation and elude death. Do you believe this?

a reply to: DeathSlayer

If you have faith you automatically do works without thinking about it by attempt to live a holy life

Its actually a shame this isn't true

What makes you think that people who had no opportunity to accept the gospel are sent to hell? They aren't. Just like babies and children who have not reached the age or responsbility aren't. Or the mentally challenged aren't. The patriarchs who preceded the new covenant aren't either.

Not only that but hell does not exist right now and there is no one in it right now. Hell isn't a permanent torture chamber. it is a disposal. those thrown in it are consumed and blotted out of the book of life.

Hell (the lake of fire) does not even appear until after the year of the lord.

lots of words that are translated as hell -aren't.
And there are turns of phrase that make hell appear to be some sicko permanent torture pit that are not what they appear.

originally posted by: cooperton
This was addressed by Jesus:

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?” (John 11:25-26)

Faith will help lead your soul after death, but if you live according to that faith in your lifetime, you undergo a metaphysical transformation and elude death. Do you believe this?

no. there are two deaths meant here. The death of the flesh body is just a shadow of the death of the soul. Hell is the destruction of the soul. complete annihilation. it is what atheists mistakenly think lies on the other side of the mortal veil no matter what. It does but only for the unsaved. Even then there is a thousand years of remedial training for at least some of the unsaved before we get to judgement day.

The problem with the book of James is that it's in The Bible, a work of complete fiction that somehow lasted 2,000 years.

a reply to: DrogoTheNorman

Faith in Jesus is sufficient, some say that faith without works is dead but they are wrong to a certain extent and right to a certain extent in that some can simply not perform the works and can only pray now and then, still Jesus said "He that call's on my name shall be saved", "Whoever call's on the name of the Lord shall be saves" - Act's 2.21, Romans 10.13

But What is the work that is spoken of, Jesus even asked for those that crucified him to be forgiven for they knew not what they did, he paid the price for our failure and sin's and so redeemed us, but when he spoke of work as in work to make wealth he said Store up your treasure in heaven were the thief can not steal it and it can not waist and he also spoke of the wealthy whom never have enough money as versed in Luke 12.16.

Now good works can be a simple as praying for other's, telling them you believe in Christ even if they laugh at you and especially then for "blessed is he that is persecuted for my name sake" and it can be in the form of charitable work's, helping those less fortunate than yourself or simply altruistic action's keeping Christ in mind as your inspiration and honouring him and so glorifying god by doing what he always wanted humanity to do.

But faith in Christ makes good work's in the heart of the faithful, it changes them as long as they have the food of the word and read the gospel's in order to let the holy spirit guide them as and when he know's it is right for them.

originally posted by: stormbringer1701

originally posted by: cooperton
This was addressed by Jesus:

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?” (John 11:25-26)

Faith will help lead your soul after death, but if you live according to that faith in your lifetime, you undergo a metaphysical transformation and elude death. Do you believe this?

no. there are two deaths meant here. The death of the flesh body is just a shadow of the death of the soul. Hell is the destruction of the soul. complete annihilation. it is what atheists mistakenly think lies on the other side of the mortal veil no matter what. It does but only for the unsaved. Even then there is a thousand years of remedial training for at least some of the unsaved before we get to judgement day.

The people in Jesus' time had the same problem when Jesus said whoever obeys his words will never taste death (John 8:51-58). The way the conversation goes, it is clear that he is referring to physical death. I assume we just continue our physical bodies into the next realm, where we eventually dispose of it, like a butterfly disposes of the chrysalis upon its transformation.

a reply to: DISRAELI

Very well put Disraeli. I enjoyed your explanation of putting faith into action by your works, and thus having your faith complete.

originally posted by: stormbringer1701

It sounds harsh; and the trinity is a bit of a murky concept, but God the father is also the son. So God did as he had commanded mankind to do even to the death.

There is a principle of leadership: Never order your subordinates to do something you have not done or would not do yourself. Don't have one standard for yourself and one for everyone else. God fulfilled that maxim to the letter even to death on the cross. He ordered us to obey the law to the standard of no error. He did that as Christ. He ordered all of mankind to be born of woman in the flesh and to die in the flesh. He did that as Christ as well.

It stands to reason, logically, that only God can judge you and therefore only God can save (pardon) you.

My personal opinion on "faith versus works" is that if works are required to "earn" salvation then you would be able to glorify yourself and your own efforts and not have to glorify God.

Ephesians 2:8-10--8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

originally posted by: DeathSlayer

originally posted by: DrogoTheNorman
If you read the New Testament thoroughly, it would appear that faith in Jesus is sufficient to be "saved". But wait...what about the book of James that seems to say that faith is not sufficient, that works also are needed for salvation.

I realize this subject has been debated for centuries. If you wish to comment, please cite evidence for why you believe the way you do.

S&F for starting the thread!

Faith is a gift from God. If you have faith you automatically do works without thinking about it by attempt to live a holy life, by spreading the "Good News" (The Gospel), have a charitable heart, help the elderly, visit those who are sick.... etc.....

Get the picture? No works.....no faith....because TRUE faith motivates you. It is a burning desire to do his will (GOD's) will not yours. You are his servant.....serving God as a mortal person in a physical world.

It is not that hard to understand.

Do you have faith?

This is how I have always taken it. Just as no person can praise Jesus without the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, so being "saved" means you will automatically be motivated to do good works.

My personal opinion is that James is speaking to people who "think" they are Christians but have never really converted.

originally posted by: cooperton

originally posted by: stormbringer1701

originally posted by: cooperton
This was addressed by Jesus:

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?” (John 11:25-26)

Faith will help lead your soul after death, but if you live according to that faith in your lifetime, you undergo a metaphysical transformation and elude death. Do you believe this?

no. there are two deaths meant here. The death of the flesh body is just a shadow of the death of the soul. Hell is the destruction of the soul. complete annihilation. it is what atheists mistakenly think lies on the other side of the mortal veil no matter what. It does but only for the unsaved. Even then there is a thousand years of remedial training for at least some of the unsaved before we get to judgement day.

The people in Jesus' time had the same problem when Jesus said whoever obeys his words will never taste death (John 8:51-58). The way the conversation goes, it is clear that he is referring to physical death. I assume we just continue our physical bodies into the next realm, where we eventually dispose of it, like a butterfly disposes of the chrysalis upon its transformation.

don't assume that when the apostles spoke of the second death it was to excuse the fact that we do die in the flesh even if we have the most faith possible. (all but one of the apostles were martyred.) Instead you should look further into it. The bible clearly describes two deaths. and not only that but concerning the elect who are not subject to judgement and the second death compared to those who are alive but spiritually dead. let the dead bury the dead. and also those that are resurrected rather than killed in the lake of fire. (a second resurrection.)

originally posted by: DrogoTheNorman

originally posted by: stormbringer1701

It sounds harsh; and the trinity is a bit of a murky concept, but God the father is also the son. So God did as he had commanded mankind to do even to the death.

There is a principle of leadership: Never order your subordinates to do something you have not done or would not do yourself. Don't have one standard for yourself and one for everyone else. God fulfilled that maxim to the letter even to death on the cross. He ordered us to obey the law to the standard of no error. He did that as Christ. He ordered all of mankind to be born of woman in the flesh and to die in the flesh. He did that as Christ as well.

It stands to reason, logically, that only God can judge you and therefore only God can save (pardon) you.

My personal opinion on "faith versus works" is that if works are required to "earn" salvation then you would be able to glorify yourself and your own efforts and not have to glorify God.

Ephesians 2:8-10--8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

you aren't pardoned though. someone took the sentence for you. under the law of the old covenant you cannot be punished for crimes already punished. also its the two goats thing.

a reply to: DrogoTheNorman

My personal opinion on "faith versus works" is that if works are required to "earn" salvation then you would be able to glorify yourself and your own efforts and not have to glorify God.

Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.

16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

originally posted by: stormbringer1701

originally posted by: DrogoTheNorman

originally posted by: stormbringer1701

It sounds harsh; and the trinity is a bit of a murky concept, but God the father is also the son. So God did as he had commanded mankind to do even to the death.

There is a principle of leadership: Never order your subordinates to do something you have not done or would not do yourself. Don't have one standard for yourself and one for everyone else. God fulfilled that maxim to the letter even to death on the cross. He ordered us to obey the law to the standard of no error. He did that as Christ. He ordered all of mankind to be born of woman in the flesh and to die in the flesh. He did that as Christ as well.

It stands to reason, logically, that only God can judge you and therefore only God can save (pardon) you.

My personal opinion on "faith versus works" is that if works are required to "earn" salvation then you would be able to glorify yourself and your own efforts and not have to glorify God.

Ephesians 2:8-10--8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

you aren't pardoned though. someone took the sentence for you. under the law of the old covenant you cannot be punished for crimes already punished. also its the two goats thing.

You say PO-TAY-TO, I say PO-TAW-TO.

I see a lot of peeps here saying 'fath in jesus' or 'belief in jesus' will get you into heaven

I say nonsense

If that were the case anyone born before jesus would have their membership revoked
So to speak

originally posted by: DrogoTheNorman

originally posted by: stormbringer1701

It sounds harsh; and the trinity is a bit of a murky concept, but God the father is also the son. So God did as he had commanded mankind to do even to the death.

There is a principle of leadership: Never order your subordinates to do something you have not done or would not do yourself. Don't have one standard for yourself and one for everyone else. God fulfilled that maxim to the letter even to death on the cross. He ordered us to obey the law to the standard of no error. He did that as Christ. He ordered all of mankind to be born of woman in the flesh and to die in the flesh. He did that as Christ as well.

It stands to reason, logically, that only God can judge you and therefore only God can save (pardon) you.

My personal opinion on "faith versus works" is that if works are required to "earn" salvation then you would be able to glorify yourself and your own efforts and not have to glorify God.

Ephesians 2:8-10--8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

you do have points but you are missing the fact that as you cannot be a carpenter if you never swing a hammer you cannot be a Christian if you do not heed his teachings. (heeding his teachings or commands is doing his works even if it is as simple as loving everyone else as you love yourself.) And if you are not a christian then you cannot rightly claim his blood to cover your sins. or perhaps more apt; he will not advocate for you before the judge.

originally posted by: errorcode
I see a lot of peeps here saying 'fath in jesus' or 'belief in jesus' will get you into heaven

I say nonsense

If that were the case anyone born before jesus would have their membership revoked
So to speak

untrue. he testified to those in sheol and many believed. not only that but there is that whole millennium teaching/preaching thing. If God sets up rules for preaching/teaching and disciplining the residents on the far side of the gulf then that preaching/teaching/disciplining is not in vain. It makes zero sense that God would ordain the preaching to the unsaved dead if there was no hope to be had from it. And it is only after that that the devil is released from the gulf for the final time to go to and fro to convince whomever he can to attack God and the angels. and it is only at that point that people start to get heaved into the lake of fire by the angels.

God is fair. Those who had no chance to receive the gospel and believe it will either get that chance in the millennium or else by virtue of being of the third of the heavenly host that fought for God during the rebellion have already been judged and made the grade. 1/3 of the population of sons of God overcame in the first age and their sojourn in the flesh is just a formality. for those the only way into hell is to commit the unforgivable sin.