Dems in Congress force debate on Ohio results in session, challenge results

Some Democrats in Congress forced an IN SESSION debate on the Ohio election results and registered what amounts to a challenge, today. Such an event has not happened in over a hundred years:

www.nytimes.com...

"This time, Senator Barbara Boxer, Democrat of California, joined some House Democrats in challenging the certification of Ohio's 20 electoral votes. That state lifted Bush past the 270 Electoral College votes required for election, to a 286-to-252 victory."
'"I have concluded that objecting to the electoral votes from Ohio is the only immediate way to bring these issues to light," Ms. Boxer said in a letter to Representative Stephanie Tubbs Jones of Ohio, a leader of the Democratic challenge."


A democracy can only function when the faction that loses an election agrees to recognize the winners and move on. One wonders if American democracy can survive a situation where the losers continously try to either undermine the government or refuse to recognize it.

PS: for those who don't know government talk, 'in session' means when the congress is actually convened and theoretically on the floor. This is the same as actually challenging the results within ones capacity as a legislator.

[edit on 6-1-2005 by onlyinmydreams]

Originally posted by onlyinmydreams

A democracy can only function when the faction that loses an election agrees to recognize the winners and move on. One wonders if American democracy can survive a situation where the losers continously try to either undermine the government or refuse to recognize it.

What a waste of time for congress and the senate, they have better and more important things to do.

My guess is Ms Green Jeans might be thinking of running in the next election and only wants more time in the lime light.

Originally posted by shots

Originally posted by onlyinmydreams

A democracy can only function when the faction that loses an election agrees to recognize the winners and move on. One wonders if American democracy can survive a situation where the losers continously try to either undermine the government or refuse to recognize it.

What a waste of time for congress and the senate, they have better and more important things to do.

My guess is Ms Green Jeans might be thinking of running in the next election and only wants more time in the lime light.

I'm worried that a chunk of America might use this as an excuse to defy the legitimate government and actively try to undermine it. How many hard left radicals out there already feel that it's 'ok' to burn down propert under the guise of environmentalism? How many already feel justified in making up stories that can hurt the war on terrorism? How many already forward terrorist propaganda?

My worry is that we may soon see a situation where the far left is committing acts of domestic terror on a daily basis.

Originally posted by onlyinmydreams


A democracy can only function when the faction that loses an election agrees to recognize the winners and move on.

No. Democracy can only endure as long as there are those in the government who are keeping an eye out for the corupt, and doing something about it. I think its a good thing this was challenged as it will bring many of the issues debated here on ATS, to the forfront of everyone. We as Americans deserve to know what is going on. WE DO NOT deserve to have our tangible worries swept under the rug just so the other half can feel good about themselves. Democracy is freedom. It is not repression. We havent had a tru democracy for many years, and since the patriot act got passed, our warped version of democracy has grown more ill and festered with each passing day.

This is a glimmer of light. A ray of hope that there are still people in the government willing to stand up for the people who they are supposed to work for. American Citizens.

Originally posted by onlyinmydreams

My worry is that we may soon see a situation where the far left is committing acts of domestic terror on a daily basis.

Oh, you have GOT to be kidding me! We are terrorist now?! Please, by all means, get out of the house and go meet some of these "Liberal Terrorist". If you do, please let me know. Id be intrested in seeing a Liberal Terrorist, especially since there are none. Now if you want to compare terrorist to Liberals, can I start comparing Bush and Hitler?

Originally posted by Kidfinger

Originally posted by onlyinmydreams

My worry is that we may soon see a situation where the far left is committing acts of domestic terror on a daily basis.

Oh, you have GOT to be kidding me! We are terrorist now?! Please, by all means, get out of the house and go meet some of these "Liberal Terrorist". If you do, please let me know. Id be intrested in seeing a Liberal Terrorist, especially since there are none. Now if you want to compare terrorist to Liberals, can I start comparing Bush and Hitler?

Actually...

I went to a far Left college. On the alumni boards it used to maintain there were people WHO URGED OTHERS TO POISON US FOOD SUPPLIES as a way to protest the war.

Sorry, but in your attempt to say that I know nothing about the Left, you accidentally forgot that I might know it very well. In the last few years liberals I know have:

1)Taken terrorist propaganda and forwarded it on to me and others with changes in text that were intended to mime serious news sources...
2) actively participated in the destruction of private property for supposedly environmental reasons
3)Interrupted/interefered with the proceedings of not only trhe federal government, but also small (local) governments
4)Created hoaxes that were designed to hurt not only the President BUT ALSO UNDERMINE OUR FIGHT AGAINST TERRORISM that were spread on the net
5)Created false hate crime reports/incidents so as to gain media/moral support for their causes

In short, Kidfinger, I know the Left all too well and so know that civil disobedience has decayed into civil violence for many of its members.

Also, I hate to break it to you, but in a Democracy the losing side MUST recognize the legal authority of the winners. I forget the exact term but it's something like the 'democratic compromise'. In short, it holds that a democracy can only work if all sides live by the law and recognize the legal powers. When one (bitter) group of losers decides that the law does not apply to them because they don't like the winners -- and deny the results of an election -- a democracy is doomed to fail.

Originally posted by onlyinmydreams
I'm worried that a chunk of America might use this as an excuse to defy the legitimate government and actively try to undermine it. How many hard left radicals out there already feel that it's 'ok' to burn down propert under the guise of environmentalism? How many already feel justified in making up stories that can hurt the war on terrorism? How many already forward terrorist propaganda?

Like you I am also worried and members of the senate and congress like Boxer need to go. She is carrying this issue to a whole new level of violence in the name of saving the earth. If the greens could have their way we would all have to live in high rise apartments with no room to breath. But what the hey it is ok for them to burn down million dollar houses, NOT!

Originally posted by onlyinmydreams
A democracy can only function when the faction that loses an election agrees to recognize the winners and move on. One wonders if American democracy can survive a situation where the losers continously try to either undermine the government or refuse to recognize it.

How did you jump from debating the results in an election to undermining the government and refusing to recognize it? A democracy can only survive if its democratic instiutions are functioning, obviously. This challenge is a function of democracy. AND if it gets settled in favour of the Republicans, which it probably will because there doesn't seem to be any hard evidence for fraud, then it only strengthens the legitimacy of the government.

shots
What a waste of time for congress and the senate, they have better and more important things to do

What? Better things to do than make sure that the republic itself is functioning?

onlyinmydreams
I'm worried that a chunk of America might use this as an excuse to defy the legitimate government and actively try to undermine it

IF they do then round them up and shoot them. Or something. But this isn't going to happen. The Congress is doing to look into the election for election fraud, so far, none of the official commisions/investigations, even from the Kerry/Edwards ticket, have found evidence of vote fraud. Congress is not likely to find anything either, but it will end any legitimate claim for vote fraud, short of the 'ol 'there's a secret government that runs both parties' bit.

My worry is that we may soon see a situation where the far left is committing acts of domestic terror on a daily basis.

Short of the SLA or ecoterrorists, the only domestic terrorists in the US are right wingers. And the only ones who have really done anything other than rob some banks or burn some SUVs are those radical right wing militias. If there is a domestic terrorist concern, its going to be them, not 'liberals'.

Also, I hate to break it to you, but in a Democracy the losing side MUST recognize the legal authority of the winners

Sure, but that doesn't mean that they can't investigate voter fraud. If the kerry people can't find anything, and then congress can't, and they still refuse to accept the results, yeah, they're causing a problem. But with your line of thinking above Yanukovich would be the president of the Ukraine, even tho every branch of the Ukranian government agreed that there was massive voter fraud.

The election process has to be legitimate, that is more important than stability, unless all anyone is after is mere stability. Of course, there are reasonable limits, and that would be around the time of the inauguration.

Why Ohio? There were other states that where much closer. Like Wisconsin, which Kerry happened to win by a little over 10,000 votes.

This whole thing was political poor sportsmanship.

ALGORE 2000 = Loser
Kerry 2004 = Loser

Democrats are sore losers, with emphasis on the loser part.

Nygdan,
Yes, the process needs to be legitimate and there should be investigations if there are serious signs of cheating...

...however, what i'm saying is that there are many radicals out there who will see this as an act to not just conduct acts of civil disobedience... but as an excuse to actively conduct civil violence/treason/insurrection.

But, yes, the congress certainly has the right to loo into results. In this case, however, Boxer (and the far left congressmen) are just going to empower those who feel that they can ignore the laws of the legal government.

Freedom was attacked by a faceless coward and freedom will be defended.

Craig Rosebraugh, the enigmatic environmental anarchist whose tenure as the public face of the terrorist Earth Liberation Front (ELF) was marked by millions of dollars in violent property destruction, a sizable financial gift from People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, and a penchant for hiding behind the Fifth Amendment, has declared war on America.

www.consumerfreedom.com...

Yeah, there are liberal terrorists called eco-terrorists.

Originally posted by onlyinmydreams


Actually...

I went to a far Left college. On the alumni boards it used to maintain there were people WHO URGED OTHERS TO POISON US FOOD SUPPLIES as a way to protest the war.

Yeah, OK. I would like to know the name of this college so I may look up rules and regulations and see if this is permitted, because I dont believe it. It would be considered a blight on the school if something like this were true. This is why ALL schools DONT allow this.

Sorry, but in your attempt to say that I know nothing about the Left, you accidentally forgot that I might know it very well. In the last few years liberals I know have:

1)Taken terrorist propaganda and forwarded it on to me and others with changes in text that were intended to mime serious news sources...
2) actively participated in the destruction of private property for supposedly environmental reasons
3)Interrupted/interefered with the proceedings of not only trhe federal government, but also small (local) governments
4)Created hoaxes that were designed to hurt not only the President BUT ALSO UNDERMINE OUR FIGHT AGAINST TERRORISM that were spread on the net
5)Created false hate crime reports/incidents so as to gain media/moral support for their causes

Agian, I dont think you are being quite truthfull here either. If you are going to make these accusations, then you had better back them up. Just because of what you have said, you are implicating someone as a terrorist under the patriot act. What you said, along with a name of who did it, is all it would take to get that person arrested and locked up in a federal pen. So if you are making these extreme accusations, please back them up, or I will have to believe you are lying..

In short, Kidfinger, I know the Left all too well and so know that civil disobedience has decayed into civil violence for many of its members.

This statement alone tells me you dont know a single Liberal personally.

Also, I hate to break it to you, but in a Democracy the losing side MUST recognize the legal authority of the winners.

Absolutly. I have no problem with this if the election was not tampered with. This has yet to be determined. There is strong evidence indicating such. That is why the investigation was called for. What, do you really think that a congressional investigation would be called over something that was trivial?

democracy is doomed to fail.

Yes, it was doomed to fail the moment Bush said America would be easier to run if it were a dictatorship and he was the dictator


Carseller4

I see you are back to calling people loosers agian

Originally posted by onlyinmydreams
this case, however, Boxer (and the far left congressmen) are just going to empower those who feel that they can ignore the laws of the legal government.

A necessary cost of maintaining an open society. It will be interesting to see any rebels defeated in the field at least.

Originally posted by RedPhoenixDelta


Yeah, there are liberal terrorists called eco-terrorists.

It appears it goes both ways.

Grover Norquist, whom most conservatives know as Executive Director of the College Republicans, boardmember of the NRA, and head of Americans for Tax Reform, has been exposed as helping Muslim groups and individuals who finance and support Islamic terrorism gain access to the Bush White House.

www.citizensoldier.org...

thats why we need to have a bi-partisan round up.

Kidfinger,

Where I went to school: Grinnell College in Grinnell, IA

The poison thing: On a website called Grinnellplans(which is now closed to public viewing), a message board for current and past students, a current student advocating poisoning US troops. The college's participation in the website was subsequently dropped and now the (still closed) webpage is open only to alumni.

Activities people I know participated in: Various violent acts at WTO conferences both here and in the world.
This includes attacking private property and interfering in policework. Think of anarchist terrorism in crowds.

Interference with local govs:Various incidents where students ineterfered with town activities.

Hoaxing: Students made up false story about how Bush paid for NKorea to build nuclear-missile bearing subs. This story was distributed in email lists and message boards.

False Reports: Activists created hoaxed hate crime against a gay person when I was at school. The activists used this to gain leverage and power on campus and to attack anyone who disagreed with their agenda. This sort of thing is happening on campus's across the country.


I think I covered everything. I hope you're satisfied.

More absentee votes than there were absentee voters in Ohio, thats just one fo the many voting inconsistencies. Everyone who has the right to vote has the right to expect their vote to be counted, both republican and democrat. The funny thing is as a democrat if George Bush asked for a recount under these circumstances I would be supporting him, it simply means that someone is asking to keep the election as fair and right as possible if there are any voting inconsistencies. This is not about the democrat and republican parties rights; its about the rights of each and everyone of us to have our vote count. If the people's votes don't count why bother?

Originally posted by onlyinmydreams

Kidfinger,

Where I went to school: Grinnell College in Grinnell, IA

The poison thing: On a website called Grinnellplans(which is now closed to public viewing), a message board for current and past students, a current student advocating poisoning US troops. The college's participation in the website was subsequently dropped and now the (still closed) webpage is open only to alumni.

So it wasnt the school supporting it. It was ONE student that was so childish, everyone saw through it and his page was shut down.

Activities people I know participated in: Various violent acts at WTO conferences both here and in the world.
This includes attacking private property and interfering in policework. Think of anarchist terrorism in crowds.

Interference with local govs:Various incidents where students ineterfered with town activities.

Hoaxing: Students made up false story about how Bush paid for NKorea to build nuclear-missile bearing subs. This story was distributed in email lists and message boards.

False Reports: Activists created hoaxed hate crime against a gay person when I was at school. The activists used this to gain leverage and power on campus and to attack anyone who disagreed with their agenda. This sort of thing is happening on campus's across the country.


I think I covered everything. I hope you're satisfied.

No, Im not. You have yet to link these activities with Liberals. You just say these acts have been committed here. The WTO was NOT abunch of Liberals going crazy. That was a GLOBAL thing. I admit that BOTH sides have wack jobs; why cant you?

I guess I should judge all conservatives by that bigot Ann Coltier? Well, by your Logic, the worst person in the party defines Ideology. So I guess all conservatives are EXACTLY LIKE Ann C.