I am proud to be a socialist.

originally posted by: nerbot
a reply to: nonspecific

Maybe when you've lived with a socialist society for any length of time you would see the pitfalls. Grass is always greener 'n all that.

Endless self fed bureacracy to keep the lazy in work while they do the minimum possible which keeps a society at a pace that cannot compete or evolve in a global market. The only reason for success is a strong national product in the first place.

The complete obliteration and erradication of any entrepreneurial influence.

Socialism promotes willful ignorance and a passion about traditionalism that stomps on individuality and breeds xenophobia and racism as the norm.

Why the hell do we need labels and boxes in the first place? Only a sheep could think it's happy inside a well made fence being fed what it's fed without considering or daring to strike out on it's own and be more than a number in a flock.

Yes, I live in France. The system sucks. I would NEVER consider myself socialist or anything of that ilk. Fortunately, I have the individuality and intelligence to be able to live a life under the radar (legally) and will ALWAYS fight 'The man' from wherever I stand.

I expect no handouts and give the same in return. That is my quiet pride.

Those who are happy to wear the label 'socialist' are a pain in the arse and weak in their own beliefs which only support those who are similar.

Why can't we rid ourselves of those who need to tick boxes, pass paper and never accept responsibility for their position in society.

Socialism excludes people believe it or not. It is a deluded reality and it DOES'T WORK unless you are one of the sheeple.

Don't do it!

Such lack of understanding of what socialism is is typical of those that believe whatever an 'authority figure' tells them without doing any of their own research.

In the US we live in a highly socialistic society - one that the benefits of socialism accue only to the weathly - but a type of socialism none the less.

A basic understanding of the word would be that 'we all put in to pay for those things that no one of us alone could pay for'.

Roads, national defense, education, health care, retirement, all those things you seem to think are produced by 'capitalism'. Capitalism feeds on socialism and keeps all the increase to themselves while we, pay for infrastructure, research - all those advances that private industry over charges such for are based on public funds. Socialism.

Your French system, since WWI, was largely put in place by the US in more altrutistic times, in order to encourage stability and an end to war.

Most modern states are a combination of socialism and capitalism. Failed states show what a purely capitalist society becomes.

originally posted by: network dude
Communism at it's core is a fantastic idea. As long as EVERYONE is willing to do their part, and NOBODY get's greedy. Unfortunately, we are talking about HUMANS and human nature tends to push us all towards greed.

Socialism is communism light. And all the helping other ideas are great, until you run out of other peoples money to fund those ideas. Then you have to raise taxes. And you have that problem with greed again.

Having lived in a capitalist society and seeing the benefits of hard work and good ideas, I prefer capitalism. I know I can always do something, take some risks, and might just hit the big time, but I have that chance. And if I fail, I have nobody to blame but me.

Before the Raygun Revolution in the US, people were more charitable. That changed with a vast media campaign of "Greed is Good" and "Self-Center" Narcissism in a few short years. People are capable of great change of heart - look at 9/11 and where that took us - "Hatred" and "Vengeance" add into the mix almost in days. I don't recognise the country I was born into any longer.

In a sense, the specific system doesn't matter, it's about the individuals that make up the system. And when people are better/truer people (not animals) then the system is always better/truer for all members.

originally posted by: FyreByrd
...... all those things you seem to think are produced by 'capitalism'.

Please don't tell me what I think, especially if you are wrong and I never even mentioned the word 'capitalism'.

Thanks.

I don't completely disagree with YOUR definition of socialism, but it isn't just about money and spending like you say the 'basic understanding of the word' is, it's about a mindset that stops people thinking as individuals and steers them to accept mediocracy.

My 'lack of understanding' at least considers more than money. It's more about people, society and how communities function.

originally posted by: Edumakated
It means when people are young they are idealistic. However, as they age and gain experience in the real world, they wise up and realize the world is not rainbows and unicorn tears.

You assume you know what was meant by the quote.

I'd say after thirty, one gains pragmatism and a degree of wisdom if so inclined and thereby learn to work with others, of different opinions to use whatever tools and ideas will improve life.

originally posted by: newWorldSamurai

I think you're on to something with the Ipads and BMWs. The open market will generate the best product. Would you expect that to be the same case with socialized health care?

And the 'so-called' market kept many much better products (Word Perfect for one, 8-track for another, the inital alcohol powered cars another) out of the market. Someone else has something better (healthcare comes to mind) and the 'free-market' buys it up and buries it.

Everything has two sides. The Market in theory should do just what you suggest - but all things have to be equal (including knowlege) among all parties. Now when has that ever happened?

a reply to: FyreByrd

If all things have to be equal, then there is no reason to try to do better.

Think of it this way. In class we have grades, you can accept the C which is the average pass grade, or you can try to do better and come up with a B or an A. Not everyone in the class will get As; in fact, most of the class won't because most of them won't do the work required to earn it. The A is a goal that should be difficult to attain, not impossible, but difficult and should take a lot of work to achieve.

If we all have to have things equal, including knowledge then those who earn As should have their grades paired away to distribute to the other kids who didn't earn As until everyone has an equal grade.

This is why most centrally planned countries tend to track kids with the lowest achievers being steered out of academics into basic labor while the high achievers were pushed toward more academically demanding futures. People's careers tended to be centrally planned just like the economy.

originally posted by: Edumakated

originally posted by: theMediator
I believe we should socialize basic needs but capitalize everything else.

Education, healthcare and the justice system NEEDS to be socialized as thinking in profits in those fields is to the detriment of the population. Also, everyone in 2015 should have a basic shelter, shouldn't starve and should have a decent chance at making a living.

The rest, capitalize the s*** out of it. Because of supply and demand, everytime someone buys a product, that person i

POublic VOTING on that product. Bad products don't sell, garbage out.

When a company fails, LET IT FAIL! We shouldn't be living in a facist system where corporations get subsidies. If they can't make it, they deserve to fail. That's the beauty of capitalism.

Public education in the US is socialized and it has been an unmitigated disaster, particularly for the poor. All one has to do is look at the VA and medicare to see how socialized medicine works.

Exactly...How anyone can subscribe to this socialism crap is beyond me...They're putting lipstick on a pig...The system worked fairly good until the socialists/communists started dictating how we must live...

originally posted by: network dude
Communism at it's core is a fantastic idea. As long as EVERYONE is willing to do their part, and NOBODY get's greedy. Unfortunately, we are talking about HUMANS and human nature tends to push us all towards greed.

Socialism is communism light. And all the helping other ideas are great, until you run out of other peoples money to fund those ideas. Then you have to raise taxes. And you have that problem with greed again.

Having lived in a capitalist society and seeing the benefits of hard work and good ideas, I prefer capitalism. I know I can always do something, take some risks, and might just hit the big time, but I have that chance. And if I fail, I have nobody to blame but me.

The days of making it big seem to be gone. I know many people who started businesses and for a variety of reasons they went nowhere. The money is good but the expenses eat most of it up. We are squashed to keep us in line and work ourselves half to death to make it anywhere. Sure you can own a business and make a decent living, but not many people get rich. Everyone gets a piece of your pie. Insurance companies and banks seem to be the biggest gainers. You are better off getting a regular job working somewhere in a factory or business for thirty years. Most people think they are doing well, but their debt can make them lose everything in a short time if things go sour.

originally posted by: Iscool

originally posted by: Edumakated

originally posted by: theMediator
I believe we should socialize basic needs but capitalize everything else.

Education, healthcare and the justice system NEEDS to be socialized as thinking in profits in those fields is to the detriment of the population. Also, everyone in 2015 should have a basic shelter, shouldn't starve and should have a decent chance at making a living.

The rest, capitalize the s*** out of it. Because of supply and demand, everytime someone buys a product, that person i

POublic VOTING on that product. Bad products don't sell, garbage out.

When a company fails, LET IT FAIL! We shouldn't be living in a facist system where corporations get subsidies. If they can't make it, they deserve to fail. That's the beauty of capitalism.

Public education in the US is socialized and it has been an unmitigated disaster, particularly for the poor. All one has to do is look at the VA and medicare to see how socialized medicine works.

Exactly...How anyone can subscribe to this socialism crap is beyond me...They're putting lipstick on a pig...The system worked fairly good until the socialists/communists started dictating how we must live...

I know right, those damn socialist/communist interstate highways have been repressing us all.

originally posted by: CranialSponge
a reply to: crazyewok

No no no silly.

You've got it all wrong.

Only Americans have the full freedom to go from rags to riches through hard work.



The rest of us all live in communistic government controlled socialist hell holes... begging our overlords for our next loaf of bread.

I laughed, I remember when I first got on the internet and browsing forums, I honestly thought the Americans seemed brainwashed, and also pretty clueless about anything non US, it was just weird! Of course I have spoken to many Americans since then, and know that's just a generalisation nowadays, but it's still there, you see it everyday on this site.

I too am proud to be a Socialist, I believe it is the future! but you're brave to say that dirty word around here nonspecific

a reply to: nonspecific

Isn't that like being proud to be communist

originally posted by: VanGcouverite
a reply to: nonspecific

Isn't that like being proud to be communist

Deep sigh....OK I apologise for the deep sigh if this is the only thread you have ever read otherwise huge massive sigh for ignoring the thousands of times folks here on ATS have clearly stated socialism is not communism. For some reason I cannot figure, folks from the US consistently equate the two.

Whilst we are at it : China is NOT communist. It is a capitalist oligarch that labels itself as communist so the population doesn't get angry and question why there are millionaires running the country. It suppresses the internet so people don't figure this out.

I'm proud to be a socialist but I am absolutley not a communist. Communism doesn't work due to Human greed which turns into an oligarchy. Capitalism doesn't work for exactly the same reason which is why both end up the same. US - run by millionaires who are always voted in because of a system that ensures only the rich can be elected. China - run by millionaires who are always voted in because of a system that ensures only party members (who are rich millionaires) can be elected.

I mean DUH!!!!

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: nonspecific

If we had cheap and socialised basic needs for all? Energy, heat, water, health care?

1. Those things are NOT cheap.

2. Energy and health care are NOT basic needs.

I would argue that when it comes down too:

Haveing Healthcare =Living

Not haveing Healthcare = Dying

Thats makes it a basic need.

You cant put a value on life.

No not everyone is created equal. And Johnny the Janitor should not get the same luxury’s as Donald the Doctor. he should not eat the same quality food or live in the same quality house.

But they both should have the same access to the same opportunity’s to better selves and the same opportunities for survival.

Im pretty well off but dam it if I want to live in a world where I live to be over 100 and my fellow countrymen live to 70. Or my children get to be literate and have a high school education and the rest of the country don’t.

Plenty of country’s have managed to provide good pre 18 education and basic healthcare for its population rich and poor without it being a failure. In fact no developed nation has had system that lacks state education or some form of access to healthcare for the poor.

Its the US healthcare a education that is among the worst in the developed world. Which indicates the problems with you guys.

I’m not a fan of heavy socialism. Not one bit. But I recognise that a developed civilised society needs some BASIC safety nets and standards.

I am proud to be a socialist

And

I am proud to be a yankee capitalist pig.

Hear me oink!

originally posted by: neo96
I am proud to be a socialist

And he comes out the closet

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: FyreByrd

If all things have to be equal, then there is no reason to try to do better.

Think of it this way. In class we have grades, you can accept the C which is the average pass grade, or you can try to do better and come up with a B or an A. Not everyone in the class will get As; in fact, most of the class won't because most of them won't do the work required to earn it. The A is a goal that should be difficult to attain, not impossible, but difficult and should take a lot of work to achieve.

If we all have to have things equal, including knowledge then those who earn As should have their grades paired away to distribute to the other kids who didn't earn As until everyone has an equal grade.

This is why most centrally planned countries tend to track kids with the lowest achievers being steered out of academics into basic labor while the high achievers were pushed toward more academically demanding futures. People's careers tended to be centrally planned just like the economy.

That's a really poor analogy. As different people have different skills and innate abilities.

Perhaps you didn't comprehend the use of the word knowlege in a 'market' context, I will try again.

The sacred 'level play ground' of the 'free market' requires all participalte have free and unfettered access to all the knowledge available about any given item. They know the source/maker; the cost to make, the cost to transport, the benefits and defects, the history of the item(s), the reputation of the sellers and other bidders, and so forth. That is a requirement of a free market.

No one has a hidden advantage all is open and transparent.

But history tells us that capitalists (who worship this ideal free market) are always looking to lie, cheat and steal their way to an advantage for power and profit.

Caveat Emptor - Let the buyer beware is the antithesis of the free market. Capitalists rig markets in their favor, for their good without regard to safety, ethics or morality.

In modern markets no person can ever hope to have the knowledge necessary to make wise decisions without the assurance of regulated markets.

Do you really trust the neighborhood 'immigrant' owned/run gas station to actually give you a gallon of gas without some oversight? Do you really. What do you think Austerity is all about - removing enforcement of Laws and Regulations designed to protect your very life and the lives of your children.

You really think someone, in a libertarian paradise, won't sell you poison posing as food, or a gun that explodes in your face. Do you really have the knowledge to check out every single angle and person to be sure their wares are what they are represented to be.

You want that - move to African - they have it in many countries. You want move to a failed state in the Middle East.

Can't happen here - you say - It Already is.

Stupid, stupid, stupid

originally posted by: nonspecific

originally posted by: network dude
Communism at it's core is a fantastic idea. As long as EVERYONE is willing to do their part, and NOBODY get's greedy. Unfortunately, we are talking about HUMANS and human nature tends to push us all towards greed.

Socialism is communism light. And all the helping other ideas are great, until you run out of other peoples money to fund those ideas. Then you have to raise taxes. And you have that problem with greed again.

Having lived in a capitalist society and seeing the benefits of hard work and good ideas, I prefer capitalism. I know I can always do something, take some risks, and might just hit the big time, but I have that chance. And if I fail, I have nobody to blame but me.

I was talking about socialist ideals?

It took that long to bring communism into the thread?

The Regan administration did a great job there did they not?

Fascism is the diet coke of socialism...just enough over reaching government bureaucracy to indirectly control the people...

Socialism has been tried in many forms, and 10s of millions of people have died in the process. The only system that offers true freedom and liberty is a constitutional republic. Which is what the US used to be, and needs to return to once again

a reply to: nonspecific

I have a weak grasp on politics but I'd prefer the simpler days.

There is a reason why there is so many smiths, bakers etc in the phone book. They plied their trade, received payment for their services, and paid tax. Fast forward a thousand years and sportsmen are being paid up to 10 million dollars a year however most emergency servicemen and women are paid a pittance and some have to rely on the generosity of the public.

Some idiots will argue that Derek Jeters salary is justified but who benefits? Any family can take their kids to the local minor leagues and be entertained for free, and the local players have a job to go to the next day. Let's be honest-no sportsmen is worth millions of dollars a year; If they were a garbage man post retirement they wouldn't get the same salary.It's a sad that the emergency services get paid less for saving lives then someone who can have a .385 batting average.

I wish for a simpler time.

a reply to: ketsuko

That is a true straw man argument. Many people get better at, or work harder at their their skills- across their lives- because they want to be better at them. Many of us want to learn or grow- that is what drives improvement or innovation. There are always those who will do the minimum to collect a paycheck, or to be a participant- the economic system, or system of governance doesn't matter. It comes down to you, and me, and if we want to contribute to others in some way shape or form through our knowledge, effort or means.