An outsiders questions on US gun control.

originally posted by: nonspecific

originally posted by: Ksihkehe
a reply to: greencmp

The sociological aspect has been discussed ad nauseam too. There are two sides to the issue and there will likely never be a law passed that is prohibitive enough to please those who want more gun control.

My knowledge of the op, having read a number of their posts, makes me believe that they are not deliberately trolling. The fact remains the topic and concept isn't new and there is nothing but the same argument on either side. There was no other outcome.

I guess I'm just frustrated by the topic.

For what it is worth I am not trolling although I understand the thought process involved.

Mettalicus made a thread a little while ago about the UK and the EU and got similar accusations because the situation seemed bizzare to him.

I feel sad if I am honest that people feel the need to be armed on a daily basis, something that is truly alien to me and most UK members.

This was as I have said many times now never an attack on the American culture but simply a desperate attempt to understad it.

Appologies to anyone that was offended by my simplistic questions about a culture I do not understand.

Here is the fundamental misunderstanding.

You say "feel the need to be armed." There is nothing of the sort. I do not feel the need to be armed. I do however understand that I can take responsibility for my own personal safety in a variety of ways and one of them is to be armed with a firearm if I so choose. I believe the idea of martial arts has also been discussed. That is also another option.

There is the embedded notion in the psyches of many in this country that you have a responsibility to take care of yourself. That includes seeing to your self-defense to some degree. For some, that is simply knowing the local emergency response numbers, but for others, it includes taking a more active role. They have every right to take that role if they want.

It is not a need to be armed but a right and a choice and a responsibility you can take on. I have never in my life been in a scenario where I would have needed a firearm for myself, but that does not preclude the possibility that it could happen someday. Citizens who keep and bear simply acknowledge they might wind up in that scenario, and the cops are not always where you need them when you need them there.

originally posted by: greencmp
a reply to: nonspecific

The simplest definition would be freedom of thought, action and expression.

Thank you and I understand that but why is it so intrinsic to American culture, You seem to hold it very hard regard compared to other cultures.

It is more revered as a principle so to speak, can you express it in words in an online forum?

originally posted by: nonspecific

originally posted by: greencmp
a reply to: nonspecific

The simplest definition would be freedom of thought, action and expression.

Thank you and I understand that but why is it so intrinsic to American culture, You seem to hold it very hard regard compared to other cultures.

It is more revered as a principle so to speak, can you express it in words in an online forum?

It is the fundamental principal of liberalism, an ideology that has been under constant attack since its first appearance.

We shouldn't be surprised that our children, under the tutelage of statists, have been indoctrinated against it.

I guess you should ask yourself where and when your own opposition to it first arose.

originally posted by: greencmp

originally posted by: nonspecific

originally posted by: greencmp
a reply to: nonspecific

The simplest definition would be freedom of thought, action and expression.

Thank you and I understand that but why is it so intrinsic to American culture, You seem to hold it very hard regard compared to other cultures.

It is more revered as a principle so to speak, can you express it in words in an online forum?

It is the fundamental principal of liberalism, an ideology that has been under constant attack since its first appearance.

We shouldn't be surprised that our children, under the tutelage of statists, have been indoctrinated against it.

I guess you should ask yourself where and when your own opposition to it first arose.

I did not intend to suggest that I opposed it?

I simply asked what it was to you as an American.

You raise an interesting point though as it often crops up that people are against liberty?

Why is this such an issue if you live in a democracy and have free will? Is there such a threat to the concept that it could be taken away from you?

a reply to: nonspecific

Every decision government makes in the form of a law is a decision the individual cannot make for him or herself. It is a removal of liberty.

So when you ask why people are opposed to gun control, it is because, thanks to your ancestral government, we had to pick up our weapons and fight with them for our right to exercise our liberty, we still remember how important it is to exercise that fundamental choice for ourselves rather than letting our government make it for us.

Think about all the times your find out there is a law preventing this or that or regulating this or that and you find it irritating. The odds are you find it irritating because it gets in the way of a choice you would have made for yourself, a choice that may have made more and better sense for you in your individual situation but that you were prevented from making by the government which often, in its infinite lack of wisdom, makes decision for everyone without being able to adequately address everyone's situation.

a reply to: nonspecific

From the very beginning, liberalism, freedom and liberty have been targeted for annihilation.

It's a battle for all of the marbles so it shouldn't be surprising that its opponents will never give up and must be perpetually kept at bay, tiresome as it is.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: nonspecific

Every decision government makes in the form of a law is a decision the individual cannot make for him or herself. It is a removal of liberty.

So when you ask why people are opposed to gun control, it is because, thanks to your ancestral government, we had to pick up our weapons and fight with them for our right to exercise our liberty, we still remember how important it is to exercise that fundamental choice for ourselves rather than letting our government make it for us.

Think about all the times your find out there is a law preventing this or that or regulating this or that and you find it irritating. The odds are you find it irritating because it gets in the way of a choice you would have made for yourself, a choice that may have made more and better sense for you in your individual situation but that you were prevented from making by the government which often, in its infinite lack of wisdom, makes decision for everyone without being able to adequately address everyone's situation.

Well I think thats the thing here, I don't really have an issue with the laws in the UK.

Altough out 2 party system is a sham and we have unjust wars against other countries our actual laws and system makes a lot of sense to me.

I am not all that scared of the govenment taking way my rights and liberties because they can't really do that and if it gets too bad we will just moan until they back down to pressure.

I think that is my fundemental issue here, that the US is suposedly a democracy yet is in perpetual fear of there elected representitives?

Why are you so distrusting of your own elected leaders? Genuine question here as I distrust ours but not so much that I need to really worry about it.

originally posted by: greencmp
a reply to: nonspecific

From the very beginning, liberalism, freedom and liberty have been targeted for annihilation.

It's a battle for all of the marbles so it shouldn't be surprising that its opponents will never give up and must be perpetually kept at bay, tiresome as it is.

Why not elect some people that would not make it so then? Are you not a democracy, surely the numbers are on your side?

a reply to: Bluntone22

And 'I' don't want 'you' deciding if your reason for owning a gun is legitimate.

a reply to: nonspecific

I think that is my fundemental issue here, that the US is suposedly a democracy yet is in perpetual fear of there elected representitives?

Why are you so distrusting of your own elected leaders? Genuine question here as I distrust ours but not so much that I need to really worry about it.

You might have to ask your own government those questions. They used to be our government until they abused that privilege and refused to listen to our "moaning" about it. Instead they cracked down and started putting their boots on our throats. We have long memories, and then we have many who immigrated here from former Soviet Bloc countries. Do you wonder why THEY might mistrust government officials?

What about people who come here from other horrible dictatorial or tyrannical hell holes?

Don't you think they and their descendants might prize that liberty and have good reason to mistrust government?

And in general, we end collecting people from places like the UK who do dislike your government for the same reasons we dislike ours. So again, can't you understand why we distrust our government?

originally posted by: nonspecific

originally posted by: greencmp
a reply to: nonspecific

From the very beginning, liberalism, freedom and liberty have been targeted for annihilation.

It's a battle for all of the marbles so it shouldn't be surprising that its opponents will never give up and must be perpetually kept at bay, tiresome as it is.

Why not elect some people that would not make it so then? Are you not a democracy, surely the numbers are on your side?

Contrary to popular belief, we are not a democracy, we are a republic.

Our constitution and governmental system was carefully arranged to minimize the possibility of successful legislation, the greatest gift ever bequeathed by a generation to its descendants.

We may not deserve that gift given our failure to uphold (or even understand) it but, we can still pull up out this nosedive.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: nonspecific

I think that is my fundemental issue here, that the US is suposedly a democracy yet is in perpetual fear of there elected representitives?

Why are you so distrusting of your own elected leaders? Genuine question here as I distrust ours but not so much that I need to really worry about it.

You might have to ask your own government those questions. They used to be our government until they abused that privilege and refused to listen to our "moaning" about it. Instead they cracked down and started putting their boots on our throats. We have long memories, and then we have many who immigrated here from former Soviet Bloc countries. Do you wonder why THEY might mistrust government officials?

What about people who come here from other horrible dictatorial or tyrannical hell holes?

Don't you think they and their descendants might prize that liberty and have good reason to mistrust government?

And in general, we end collecting people from places like the UK who do dislike your government for the same reasons we dislike ours. So again, can't you understand why we distrust our government?

I hold you in high regard here on ATS, your comments are usually correct and insightfull at the least.

That said.

It was not my governement that did those things and they did not do them to you. My ansestors did certain things that your ansestors disagreed with, this is not a long memory. I was born within 5 miles of the villiage that the pilgrim fathers first set out from. given the insestous nature of the time it could be said that I am one of the few englishmen that can claim to be a forfather of the US. To do so would be nonsense.

Things happened hundreds of years ago and those things happened because of people who are now all dead. I can say without any sense of irony that the threat of the UK taking back the US is not an issue. Even if they wanted to it could not happen.

As to your newer immigrants do they also not have the right to vote?

An honest and true question. What are you all so afraid of? It really baffles me and if I could only undersand I could maybe agree with you.

originally posted by: greencmp

originally posted by: nonspecific

originally posted by: greencmp
a reply to: nonspecific

From the very beginning, liberalism, freedom and liberty have been targeted for annihilation.

It's a battle for all of the marbles so it shouldn't be surprising that its opponents will never give up and must be perpetually kept at bay, tiresome as it is.

Why not elect some people that would not make it so then? Are you not a democracy, surely the numbers are on your side?

Contrary to popular belief, we are not a democracy, we are a republic.

Our constitution and governmental system was carefully arranged to minimize the possibility of successful legislation, the greatest gift ever bequeathed by a generation to its descendants.

We may not deserve that gift given our failure to uphold (or even understand) it but, we can still pull up out this nosedive.

So what is all of that "land of the free" "freedom" stuff about then?

Again genuine question although it may look like I am trolling?

I am not I am bemused by the contradictions here??

a reply to: nonspecific

Have you ever really studied the events of the American Revolution?

The colonists "moaned" about the unjust treatment they received from the English Parliament, they did everything they could to explain to Parliament why what Parliament was doing was unjust and disastrous, but Parliament didn't listen the way you claim your government would.

So what recourse was left?

What would you do if your government simply didn't listen to the moaning?

And I said ask your government because in its foundations, it is the same one we rebelled against. British troops are the reasons why we have at least half of the Bill of Rights tacked on to the Constitution. They could search any home they wanted, take what they wanted, live in any home they wanted, etc.

And they were given those powers because we moaned over the idea that it was our responsibility to replenish the British treasury with a series of taxes. When we tried to avoid the taxes by buying tea from other sources and other such measure, the Parliament created a monopoly to force us to pay those taxes. And no colony could represent themselves in your Parliament to make any protest against this or any other policy. This is where "no taxation without representation" comes from.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: nonspecific

Have you ever really studied the events of the American Revolution?

The colonists "moaned" about the unjust treatment they received from the English Parliament, they did everything they could to explain to Parliament why what Parliament was doing was unjust and disastrous, but Parliament didn't listen the way you claim your government would.

So what recourse was left?

What would you do if your government simply didn't listen to the moaning?

I understand and agree with you but that was a few hundred years ago now? Are you really saying that you are bitter about that today?

Why is you government not listening? you have had hundreds of years to elect representitives that will do the right thing for you?

You simply can not use something so historical to justify your actions in contemporary society surely?

As I said earlier we in the UK can and will stand up to our so called leaders if needs be.

How is something that happened hundreds of years ago still an issue, you could wipe the UK out in a heartbeat with millitary might if needed?

It was a long time ago and everyone involved is dead.

a reply to: ketsuko

If he read this, it might help put into perspective the amount of "moaning" done prior to our need to step up and stop their military oppression by force.

Revolutionary War Timeline


Mr "nonspecific", please note the events from 1764 to 1774...only a 10 year period transpired from the start of the moaning and displeasure to full on rebellion.

originally posted by: Krakatoa
a reply to: ketsuko

If he read this, it might help put into perspective the amount of "moaning" done prior to our need to step up and stop their military oppression by force.

Revolutionary War Timeline


Mr "nonspecific", please note the events from 1764 to 1774...only a 10 year period transpired from the start of the moaning and displeasure to full on rebellion.

For the love of god that was hundreds of years ago.

Really?

I mean really really.

Do you see me kicking off at scandanavians?

Do we really need to bring up more recent US culture? Eugenics and segragation anybody...

Oh no sorry about that, wrong meeting. Move along now, move along...

a reply to: nonspecific

Lighten up Francis. You asked why, and we are telling you. If you cannot accept the explanation, then your search for knowledge and understanding is disingenuous.

As I said, you cannot understand, isn't that obvious sir?

a reply to: nonspecific

I am saying we learned our lesson about governments and how they can turn on you.

But I see that in your annoyance about me bringing up our origins and where and how we got our start, you completely ignore that we have many in our country from places that also have dictatorial, brutal governments, many in our country who came from Soviet Bloc nations.

You ignore their influence.

Are you saying their fears of government are also unjustified?

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: nonspecific

I am saying we learned our lesson about governments and how they can turn on you.

But I see that in your annoyance about me bringing up our origins and where and how we got our start, you completely ignore that we have many in our country from places that also have dictatorial, brutal governments, many in our country who came from Soviet Bloc nations.

You ignore their influence.

Are you saying their fears of government are also unjustified?

I understand this but can you not see that your nation is very young as far as they go?

You act as if you are the first country that has had to deal with immigration, diveristy and religious disharmony?

Yes the US is diverse but that is what cultures are.

With no disrepect whatsoever the US is young. Europe was doing this before the US was created.

It is hard to put this into words without sounding offensive but it is the truth. Some of us left to make you because of it and it was old news then. This is not an insult but I imagine it could be deemed one.