The nature of our leaders

Taken from Gorgias as recorded in Plato's Dialogues

"Consider Socrates," he will say, "whether Gorgias or any one-else can produce any greater good than wealth." Well, you and I say to him, and are you a creator of wealth? "Yes," he replies. And who are you? "A money-maker." And do you consider wealth to be the greatest good of man? "Of course," will be his reply. And we shall rejoin: Yes; but our friend Gorgias contends that his art produces a greater good than yours. And then he will be sure to go on and ask, "What good? Let Gorgias answer." Now I want you, Gorgias, to imagine that this question is asked of you by them and by me; What is that which, as you say, is the greatest good of man, and of which you are the creator? Answer us.

What art or profession provides the greatest benefit to men and his civilization? That was the question asked by Socrates. That question is still relevant, perhaps even more so.

The kind of professionals we find in leadership positions today are invariably businessmen, whose backgrounds are in the creation and distribution of goods, services, and money.

By the reasoning of Socrates, such men are convinced that the creation of wealth and luxuries are the greatest good that man can do, and have fashioned their world accordingly. Obviously, that is only the estimation of these sorts of men. A soldier would think that the organization of armies and their materials would be superior to the work of business, and a physician would consider the health of men and the knowledge of medicines and remedies far superior.

A healthy government is made from many different parts of our society. Just like a well balanced diet, it includes dishes from many different ingredients. We can't survive on one kind of food very well, why do we allow our government to be made up and influenced by one kind of people.

If the people estimate that the generation of money is the greatest good, then the corporation would be their highest institution. Of course, we can say that this has become true. This, like an imbalanced diet, offers our society only one element upon which to sustain our nation. And, just like a man who only eats one kind of food, he develops various diseases.

If the popular notion is that the corporate world provides the greatest good for America, then we have a condition where the people have become unfamiliar with the great array of professions and arts that really go into making a big country operate. Money is only a part of a nation, business is the realm of merchants and banks, and has never been the sole occupation of the nation.

As such, I speak as a physician, diagnosing a nation who has become gorged upon one kind of food, and has rendered itself unable to savor or appreciate the other things before us in this world. The remedy is simple, a purgative should be given, and the excess purged and removed from the body of our nation. Let us swallow the bitter medicine of this treatment, and spew out from us what we have gorged ourselves upon.

Arkaleus Asclepius.

Originally posted by Arkaleus

If the popular notion is that the corporate world provides the greatest good for America, then we have a condition where the people have become unfamiliar with the great array of professions and arts that really go into making a big country operate. Money is only a part of a nation, business is the realm of merchants and banks, and has never been the sole occupation of the nation.

As such, I speak as a physician, diagnosing a nation who has become gorged upon one kind of food, and has rendered itself unable to savor or appreciate the other things before us in this world. The remedy is simple, a purgative should be given, and the excess purged and removed from the body of our nation. Let us swallow the bitter medicine of this treatment, and spew out from us what we have gorged ourselves upon.

Arkaleus Asclepius.

Spoken like a true Bolshevik.

The billions of dollars on their way to the people of the tsunami are not coming from the leftwing nations who are themselves depended on the almighty dollar for their existence.


Impoverished people help no one, not even themselves.

Money doesn�t grow on trees, someone has to make it.

Money is created by people----for the benefit of people.

Money is not evil-----covetousness is evil.

I am no communist! You shouldn't accuse folks of that unless you have a good reason.

My point was that our national leadership is represented exclusively by the corporate classes, and our national policies are beginning to only reflect THEIR value system. It is unhealthy to have only one kind of philosophy in the government of a nation of this size and complexity.

I have no problem with free enterprise, but free enterprise should not be running the government! Our interests are not best served by the increase of wealth alone - we need more depth to our philosophy than "Get as rich as you can, and consequences be damned."

Surely you understand this is not a Marxist philosophy, I have no problem with wealthy people or industries - my complaint is that they have become rediculously narrow in their intelligence and activities. Gone are the Carnegies and Rockerfellers, who were rich men and old bast'rds at that, but still understood they needed to BUILD SOCIETY and improve mankind.

You can't just have a system of indefinte expansion without a larger social philosophy. There is no good in having a rich McDonalds and Nikes if everyone is fat and stupid. Society suffers when only one aspect of human activity is expressed.

Arkaleus

There are plenty of people creating hysteria over Corporations-----calling them evil.

When you say we need to start purging Corporations because there are two many you speak for the leftwing.

How many corporations do we keep?

Which ones?

Who decides?

Once we begin confiscating personal property (for the good of the people) we are Communist, Bolsheviks, Socialist-----is there another name for it-----perhaps thievery?

American Capitalism works just fine----if you are concerned about fat people you can find plenty in the ghettoes----perhaps we should cut back on all that welfare, it creates lazy fat people.

I think I am arguing above your head.

I am not interested in forcing people to do anything at all. I don't care what you build, as long as there some intelligent guidance in our system of government.

What I am saying is that we have forced out all the philosophers and replaced them with MBAs. No one is THINKING about the future, they are BUILDING BUSINESS MODELS. These kinds of men are not up to the task of leadership - they only understand money.

Obviously, you can't write a book with only one word, and you can't build a government with only one kind of people. There is a place for business - but it's not in the Capital. We need deeper men and more complete intellects.

There is separation of church and state -

Let there be a separation of BUSINESS and STATE as well.

Arkaleus

[edit on 6-1-2005 by Arkaleus]

Arkaleus is another name for Hercules or Noah, isn't it?

The people that rule use fear as their tool and commit acts of treason against their own people. They continue to conspire to hide the truth that they are in a treaty with an alien race in exchange for tecnholgy. They alow all this without their own people being aware of such activits. They even let these E.B.Es secretly kidnapp people and test them in underground bases.

They test on their own POWs and soliders without permission.

Control is almost total over us as a race now.

They are at war with their own people.

Some governments and world elites strife to implement a new world order.

The nature of most of our current leaders is evil,whether they believe it is for the best or they are just satanic sort o' guys this is the nature of them.

Just cause you're paranoid doesn't mean they not watching you...

You researched my name! You have found out one of my little secrets. . .

My name has several meanings. It does indeed allude to Noah, who in the most ancient stories was called Utnapishtim. Hercules is also correct, my name is actually a transliteration of the Greek "Herakles" into the Roman form "Arkaleus."

In the ancient mystery schools, the power of this figure was associated with the sun, or Mithras, and the high days were celebrated with due reverence. That is perhaps how I touch this immortal force, but it really is all understanding. I chose this name for myself because I have a higher purpose, and it stems from the same motivation Noah had. Can anyone guess my meaning?

I have watched you grow over the six months we have seen each other, Shorty. You were so hungry for knowledge that you would listen to anyone who spoke to you. I hope you have become better able to discern fools from sages now. Many online in these forums should not be listened to, as they will mislead you into dark places.

Lad, the greatest thing I hope you gain here is the strong righteous heart, which calls men to strong resistance of evil. May you never sit at ease with the rest of your generation. I would that you inherit what they do not, and that means you must make your heart bold against the temptations and luxuries offered by those who would placate our nations.

Be bold shorty, and keep yourself away from this generation of snakes and insencere persons. That's the kind of lad I most love, and his inheritance is the best of all possible houses.

These thugs who would sell us out to the demonic forces to make themselves rich and powerful on this earth are our enemies, they are traitors to their own people, and my brothers and I will forever pursue them until they are removed from this earth.

Become wise, Shorty, and set your heart on knowledge. You will become strange to your people, and will be set apart from their destruction. Be strong, for it is a difficult path to follow, and many are those who will oppose you and seek to slow you down. Pass them by, and overcome their malicious intent. You have learned to loathe evil and that is the first great lesson for a boy. Learn the correct stand to take against it and you will be a fine and righteous man.

Arky

I think I understand what you're saying, Hercules (do...do ya mind if I call you hercules? ) Anyway, it's true that money and corporations shouldn't be the highest thing on our mind. Here's where we (once again) disagree though. I don't think it has ruined us yet. I don't think that we are eating one kind of food. I know people for whom money isn't the most important thing, although I agree with you that thinking so can lead to destruction. I guess, again, our paths seperate in that I still believe in the goodness of people. I don't think that the majority of people are dark or serpents...yet.

Then I would ask one simple question Herman, what other kind of food ARE we eating?

Or, in other words, what else besides the making of money is on the minds of the people?

If you can summarize Modern American Philosophy, how would you describe it?

Arky

Originally posted by Arkaleus
Then I would ask one simple question Herman, what other kind of food ARE we eating?

Or, in other words, what else besides the making of money is on the minds of the people?

If you can summarize Modern American Philosophy, how would you describe it?

Arky

Oh boy, is that a loaded question! I don't think I could properly summarize Modern American Philosophy. I'm not a philisophic scholor or anything. I'm only 17, and I don't think I have the insight to properly summarize Modern American Philosophy. I can respond to your other questions though.

The other things on peoples mind, a.k.a the other food people are eating is various. I do agree with you that money has corrupted many, and will always corrupt people, but there are always other things on peoples mind. Spending time with their loved ones. Sex (I know that's not always a good kind of food for people to eat...but that's what's on a lot of people's minds). Literally eating food . Just being happy without too much money is the goal for some people I know. My brother wants to teach College psychology. I asked him, "But there's not a lot of money in that, right?". And he just said it was enough, he didn't really need a lot. I know that has something to do with money, but it's not the soul focus of his carreer. My dad has a small business. I won't go into too much detail, but about 10 years back, his brother had his own business. My dad had helped him start this busines, and even moved it out to Arizona. My uncle then sold this business for $20 million dollars, and didn't give us a cent. He didn't even buy us a Christman present that year. My dad doesn't even hold a grudge (that I can tell). They still spend time together and everything. So anyway, my dad now has his own business, and he's happy where he's at. He doesn't want or need any more money. Doesn't feel the need to "step on the little guy" or anything like his brother so sadly did.

So there are a few things... Typing this up I better understood your point though. While writing these things, I realized there is almost NOTHING in our society that doesn't one way or another involve money. Strange.

I think you just about proved my point, Herman. Be honest with yourself and complete the reasoning for yourself.

Herman, money has always been a necessary component of nations and civilization. I am an honest man and understand this. My point was that the generation of money has become the SOLE industry of the nation, and this is unwise and unhealthy.

A great nation like ourselves has many different aspects to it. We seem to have sacrificed all other forms of advancement and philosophy for the single-minded effort of making money. This is an indication of the kind of people in power. It is a reasonable expectation that we elect leaders who can detach themselves from the world a bit - and think a little more deeply. That's the whole point of paying an elected leader his salary.

It's rather silly to elect men who cannot remove themselves from the machine and take advantage of their tenure to do and think things that we are not always able to. That's why we elect representatives!

I cannot stress this enough: Merchants and businessmen were always at a level below governors and princes. It was understood that moneymaking was inferior and separate to the work of governance. A necessary part of it perhaps, but always ancillary.

In America, we have become imbalanced in our form of governemnt. The primary concern of the government has become industry and finance, and this is dangerously close to corruption. I say this because human nature is fairly simple, and when people become corrupt they don't act very boldly or become independent.

It takes deeper thinking to govern America. We deserve better. We cannot endure as a healthy people without the proper leadership.

Arkaleus

Originally posted by Arkaleus


Let there be a separation of BUSINESS and STATE as well.


[edit on 6-1-2005 by Arkaleus]

This is probably the best idea I have ever heard.

The only problem is that now we've got to get the government to believe that

is the idea that corperations are inherently evil (even though most if not all are owned by a combined group of investors and have to produce a product and invest capital to stay in business) while a government who answer to no one and have to produce nothing except waste are considered good.

Of course government is needed but only to the point of law enforcment and defense.

You know, you're not the only one with the theory that we should all fall back into the level of poverty of third world nations but I think that kind of pessimistic thinking is wrong. Why should we not endeavor to bring them up with us instead of decending to their level?

I got news for you. The only people who think living in a village with no electricity and no clean water is cool are sitting in Starbucks sipping a latte right now. These same people who deem themselves righteous enough to make the decision for everyone else to swallow the "bitter pill" of poverty somehow always seem to see themselves excluded for some reason or another.


They utter phrases like: "Well, I have to drive an SUV because of my needs but I bought hybrids for all my staff" and "my schedule prevents me from flying coach so I have to use a private charter but everyone else should not."

Its easy to say we need to remove our excesses when we think our excuses are going to exclude ourselves from the judgement we passed on someone else. Speaking as the physician, I guess you have a number of those yourself?

It's not really a novel idea I am suggesting, I think it's just another way of saying "governments should not be corrupt."

But the way I phrase this is important: Let there be a separation of BUSINESS and STATE. The two are not part of the same function. Convincing the people they are is a very dishonest development in our culture.

We consider it to be "normal" that our government is populated with businessmen, and the ties between business and government are taken for granted today. At any other time, such relationships would be an indication of widespread corruption.

Gee, are we really that dumb?

To be honest, we aren't that dumb, we were manipulated and conditioned to accept this. We quit asking questions and judging things honestly. We got caught up into money, we got greedy, and we quit watching the ship like we should have. Now we have the wolves running the chicken house, and it's no wonder things are going haywire.

Arky

Hold on a sec man. Having an affluent lifestyle and luxuries has nothing at all to do with what I am talking about.

We are free to make ourselves as rich as we can, by whatever honest means we can. "Wealth of Nations" is still an okay book!

Corporations are not "inherently" evil, but excess in any form is. What we have is excessive and undue corporate influence in our national government. It's not a very deep philosophy I am espousing here: Leadership needs to be divorced from the influences of the world to a greater degree than the common citizenry. That's just common sense, and honest government.

It's a rather silly notion that our standard of living is somehow riding upon the power and strength of corporations and their positions in our government, and the pressure they exert against our representatives. That's called corruption, conflict of interest, and letting the pirates guard the treasury.

I don't care if you burn filthy coal to power your home, or you use hydrogen fuel cells. I don't care if you build nuclear plants and dump the waste on the head of the three-toe purple wumpum-bellied lizard. I don't care about these things as much as I care about the integrity of the Republic, and the INTEGRITY of her public instituions.

And don't give me the line about nothing being sacred or holy, that's just the cop-out of profane and cynical persons. We HAVE to maintain a level of integrity for our system to work.

Arkaleus


[edit on 10-1-2005 by Arkaleus]

Well, the only asnwer I have is something I've supported for a long time. One term limits on any public office. That would prevent the buying of longterm politicians. I agree that buying politicians is not right but being a capitalist country, our leaders must make decisions which benefit the growth of the economy as a whole.

There is a great deal of corruption in our govt. Most of it is brought on by lifelong politicians who become senior senators or congressmen who head committies and weild too much power. The answer is not to strike down coperate America but the ensconsment of these fat cats in our government.

It needs to become something we understand as a people: Our goodness and progress does not come from money and corporate systems. These thigns are the machinery of the people, and should never take precedent over the ideals and concepts of the people.

What we've lost is our ideals, our philosophy. Our minds have become caught in the materialism and the madness of the marketplace. We've forgottten the whole point of life itself - It's not to get rich and fat - There needs to be a better reason for life than that.

America's philosophical condition is very ill, we are degrading intellectually at an alarming rate. The people are not thinking like they used to anymore, they are just consuming. That is a bitter policy for us to participate in, and it makes us a truly poor people, even if our roads are paved with gold and covered with shiney new cars.

Arky

Originally posted by Arkaleus

America's philosophical condition is very ill, we are degrading intellectually at an alarming rate. The people are not thinking like they used to anymore, they are just consuming. That is a bitter policy for us to participate in, and it makes us a truly poor people, even if our roads are paved with gold and covered with shiney new cars.

Arky

Well, I agree with you on that note. Ever since the dogma of socialism has infected us and the weapon of political correctness has been employed, we have been at war with the degredation you speak of. Both of these ideas require the people think not for themselves but rather depend on the government to make decisions, feed, and shelter them. Intellectuallism and self preservation go hand in hand.

Americans are being too permissive and lenient in their civic judgments.

"Just let it get fat and sag until it falls" is not acceptable social policy.

Defending the actions of our government when we should be reforming and discussing things as free men is not virtuous.

Ignoring the rest of the spectrum of human endeavor and thought in favor of monetary expansion is just plain wicked.

I see inside my fellow citizens, and I have an understanding of their hearts. What I find in many of them is disturbing to me, and it is something dark and nasty.

Arkaleus.