A History of Socialism in America

originally posted by: MystikMushroom

originally posted by: DBCowboy
Socialism only works in a system where the government is not corrupt.

How many here are going to say that their government is not corrupt?

Show me an incorruptible man...

How can I help you?

a reply to: nonspecific

In my personal experience, people who lean to the "conservative" spectrum tend to be black and white thinkers. My conservative friends often seem to be yes/no and right/wrong. These friends of mine organize things around the fact that something is, or it isn't something. That's probably why its insanely frustrating for my conservative friends to talk to me. I don't see things in black/white. There ARE shades of grey between the lines. It really keeps both sides from finding any common ground. LOL

Annnyway, back on topic...

I've talked to people from Europe about taxes. A few have been surprised at what I pay out of each paycheck, and what LITTLE I get in return. I'm kind of shocked by how much they pay and how MUCH they get in return. It seems to me their ROI (return on investment) is a lot higher in those countries. They may pay 15-20% more in taxes, but my god what why actually get/see on an annual basis in return...

Honestly, we should be getting a lot more "bang" for our buck in regards to taxes in the USA.

But...that's, just, like...my opinion, man...

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
a reply to: nonspecific

In my personal experience, people who lean to the "conservative" spectrum tend to be black and white thinkers. My conservative friends often seem to be yes/no and right/wrong. These friends of mine organize things around the fact that something is, or it isn't something. That's probably why its insanely frustrating for my conservative friends to talk to me. I don't see things in black/white. There ARE shades of grey between the lines. It really keeps both sides from finding any common ground. LOL

Annnyway, back on topic...

I've talked to people from Europe about taxes. A few have been surprised at what I pay out of each paycheck, and what LITTLE I get in return. I'm kind of shocked by how much they pay and how MUCH they get in return. It seems to me their ROI (return on investment) is a lot higher in those countries. They may pay 15-20% more in taxes, but my god what why actually get/see on an annual basis in return...

Honestly, we should be getting a lot more "bang" for our buck in regards to taxes in the USA.

But...that's, just, like...my opinion, man...

Coming from what is a supposed socialist country I would tend to agree that from what I know we get a better deal.

As I said earlier road tax is calculated per car on co2 emmisions, our NHS is funded by a seperate National insurance tax as I beliveve are unemployment benifit, disability allowance and state pensions 4 very socialist ideas.

Nationa insurance is a pretty big tax on any money you earn between £110 and £844 per week - you pay 11% gross.

You also then pay income tax on a paye basis(Ie. it is deducted at source on a weekly/monthly basis)

Then you pay Value added tax of 20% on all standard purchaces(not including fuel/tobacco/alcohol, they are much higher)

So in truth most of our Socialist systems are paid seperatley from our standard taxation and bieng a socialist plan if you are out of work you still get any of the benifits with no additinal charge.

they gripe about "socialized healthcare" in the US as if it's a bad thing. but well, seems to me it has been for a very long time.
the gov't gives alot of money to drug companies to develop drugs, to research, to help build hospitals and buy them equipment, ect..heck, we have even been paying for a select few to get treatments. they have done this for as long as I remember!!! most of us have paid plenty into this socialized healthcare system through the years!
only time I hear them gripe about all that money that has gone into building this great healthcare system is when it has dealt with fetal tissue research, and that was aimed more at those that provide the tissue, not the dollars that go into it!
the healthcare system IS SOCIALIZED, has been for a very long time. only thing that they have an objection to is that those of us who have paid into the system to build it should have a way to get some reward for helping to build it. suggest that they drop all funding from the healthcare industry, not just the idea of expanding the social programs so that all can enjoy them, and well, that's crazy talk, even to them.

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs
a reply to: DBCowboy

What individual liberties and rights have you lost?

Patriot Act? Ok, but that's nothing to do with the economic process of Socialism.
Gun restrictions? Same again. Nothing to do with Socialism.
Free Speech Zones? Once again I'll agree that's a Liberty lost, but not much to do with economics and Socialism.

That'd be an interesting thread.

The best example would be "public education".

The mandatory indoctrination of children into a state-run education system represents the pinnacle of manifest socialist policy and is an absolute requirement on the road to serfdom.

a reply to: greencmp

that's funny, since if I am remembering right, the serfs of old really didn't have that much of an education...the best they could hope for is to have someone picking them up as an apprentice, and well, there really wasn't a good chance of that happening, most learned by helping their parents farm the land for the landowner....
and that was the best they could hope for, to farm another's land for a small pittance of the harvest.
even in colonial america at the beginning, only the few rich could actually send their kids off for a decent education, the rest were left to learn whatever their parents could teach them, and well....couldn't aspire to be more than their parents were because of it.

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
a reply to: nonspecific

In my personal experience, people who lean to the "conservative" spectrum tend to be black and white thinkers. My conservative friends often seem to be yes/no and right/wrong. These friends of mine organize things around the fact that something is, or it isn't something. That's probably why its insanely frustrating for my conservative friends to talk to me. I don't see things in black/white. There ARE shades of grey between the lines. It really keeps both sides from finding any common ground. LOL

Annnyway, back on topic...

I've talked to people from Europe about taxes. A few have been surprised at what I pay out of each paycheck, and what LITTLE I get in return. I'm kind of shocked by how much they pay and how MUCH they get in return. It seems to me their ROI (return on investment) is a lot higher in those countries. They may pay 15-20% more in taxes, but my god what why actually get/see on an annual basis in return...

Honestly, we should be getting a lot more "bang" for our buck in regards to taxes in the USA.

But...that's, just, like...my opinion, man...

Part of the problem is that many of those utopian countries essentially leech off the US. Unfortunately, we play the world police and bodyguard (we can debate if this is a good or bad thing in another thread) so we have a massive military budget. It is easy to spend money on other stuff if you aren't funding a massive military. The problem is if we don't do it, who will?

We also develop most of the innovations and our free market then allows companies to use the US as the market to recoup their costs since other countries won't pay up.

Those of us who do pay large tax bills do question what we are getting for our money. That is the crux of the issue. Fewer and fewer people are paying taxes but more and more people want to spend more money. It simply cannot work.

Government has to reduce its size and role in society. It is trying to do everything poorly instead of a few things well.

a reply to: greencmp

What mandatory indoctrination?

a reply to: Sremmos80

lol

What mandatory indoctrination indeed.

a reply to: greencmp

... Yes, what is it?
Pretty simple question, I know you are more than capable of answering and not playing coy.

Is it because we say that kids need to go to school? They don't have to go to public school, they just need to go to a school.

originally posted by: Sremmos80
a reply to: greencmp

... Yes, what is it?
Pretty simple question, I know you are more than capable of answering and not playing coy.

Is it because we say that kids need to go to school? They don't have to go to public school, they just need to go to a school.

Technically they just need an education. They don't even have to go to school, since you can always home school as well (but that's a sure fire way to stunt your child's social learning so good luck with that).

originally posted by: burdman30ott6
a reply to: Krazysh0t

I have a problem with a system in which roughly 47% of society lives off the earnings of the other 53%. I have no issue paying for taxes which go towards infrastructure, education*, police, etc. because I use those and feel ANYONE who uses them should be paying equally into them...

I would really love to see where did you get those numbers from... I mean, we all heard about 150 richest people having more money than half of human kind, but never heard about 47-53.

What I find fascinating is that the same people who support small government tend to agree with political side that closes its eyes in law loophole that corporations are using to avoid taxes... and I never remember any of them objecting about that, including their news platform - FOX, while they really hard try to find people living on social and eating lobster?! (everyone remember that )

Real hypocrisy is when those same people are in church praying to the guy who by all standard was socialist and tried to teach people to take care of others...

And can someone please take time and explain to me what means tiny/small government - is that government that Russia can deal with easier?? I seem to be lost in meaning of this, as something that makes our country superpower and great is taken as something wrong and bad?!

BTW, had no idea we have history subforum - about time!!!

a reply to: SuperFrog

Yea, that's an interesting point you brought up. How do you have a strong and small government at the same time?

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Ya I should have added that too, and honestly if we want to talk forced indoctrination I think what some home schools and private schools teach, SOME not all, would have to be part of that.
But that is another thread.

originally posted by: greencmp

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs
a reply to: DBCowboy

What individual liberties and rights have you lost?

Patriot Act? Ok, but that's nothing to do with the economic process of Socialism.
Gun restrictions? Same again. Nothing to do with Socialism.
Free Speech Zones? Once again I'll agree that's a Liberty lost, but not much to do with economics and Socialism.

That'd be an interesting thread.

The best example would be "public education".

The mandatory indoctrination of children into a state-run education system represents the pinnacle of manifest socialist policy and is an absolute requirement on the road to serfdom.

I do not agree with you in that . I have acquired my education from one of the top education systems in the world. In addition to couple of grades in another top education system.

I am familiar with different education systems and generally speaking, so far, what I have noticed, what differentiates the top nations (in Europe) , is the fact that private education / homeschooling is near to inexistent. In my nation for example, which is among top education systems in the world, private schools are not even able to compete with public schools.

All in all, I believe that public education systems should not focus on competition, but rather equality in addition to providing extra opportunities for top students. The problem with private schools is the fact they create inequality by grabbing the best teachers out there.

Another aspect lies in role of teacher. For example, in Finland, the competition for becoming a teacher is higher than competition for any other field. Only the top students can become teachers.

Altogether, I believe that everything comes down to execution. Public school system without private schools is best for everyone in society as even smart kids from poor families get high quality education with top teachers.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

In this discussion "big/small" government should be read as "more/less" government control and not taken as a representation of power.

I asked the same question early in the thread and no one defending less government seemed to want to explain how less government will provide any real answers to any problems facing the western world.

That being said, I do agree with Superfrog that the top 1% want less government because that means they will be held less accountable for their actions.

a reply to: SuperFrog

loophole that corporations are using to avoid taxes

Corporations don't pay taxes. Taxes are an expense that becomes part of the cost of doing business. So in order to turn a profit, taxes require a higher selling price.

Consumers pay corporate taxes, not corporations.

And can someone please take time and explain to me what means tiny/small government - is that government that Russia can deal with easier??

A small government has specific duties. It can be strong when it sticks to those specific duties.

Russia is none of our business. If they live wrong they will go bankrupt in a free market.

a reply to: hubrisinxs

Yea I agree with that reasoning as well. It is likely such things are repeated by others because they sound good and they haven't fully thought out what they are thinking or that they are playing into an agenda to benefit people other than themselves at the expense of themselves.

In fact, it is HIGHLY likely that a retraction of government size on the scale that many Tea Party and further right conservatives desire would result in a massive contraction in our economy, resulting in many lost jobs, high unemployment, and it would be compounded by no safety net to help these people recover afterwards. Though, I'm sure the 1% super rich wouldn't see much disruption in their lives.

originally posted by: Sremmos80
a reply to: greencmp

... Yes, what is it?
Pretty simple question, I know you are more than capable of answering and not playing coy.

Is it because we say that kids need to go to school? They don't have to go to public school, they just need to go to a school.

"The children who know how to think for themselves spoil the harmony of the collective society that is coming, where everyone would be interdependent."

"Independent self-reliant people would be a counterproductive anachronism in the collective society of the future where people will be defined by their associations."

John Dewey, educational philosopher, proponent of modern public schools.


But, you knew that already. Didn't you?

a reply to: greencmp

How does this quote address you saying there is mandatory indoctrination?

Dewey may have been part of the system at one point but does that really mean that every single school follows that thought process?

ETA: You think you can find the where those quotes actually came from btw?
This guy tried, he couldn't find it.
www.notnews.org...