Astonishing Celestial Knowledge of the Talmud

originally posted by: Devino

originally posted by: Revolution9

originally posted by: dashen
a reply to: Revolution9

The 12 constellations of antiquity which fall within the sun's ecliptic comprise a section of the sky.
It is my understanding that my quoted statement refers to the stars that are found within that belt.
Which as far as I understand is the largest number ever recorded in antiquity.

Is that only a portion of the sky or did the ancients divide the whole sky into the 12 constellations?

Actually they divided the sky up into 12 constellations know today as the Zodiac. Each constellation consists of 30° and since each day is just under 1° one can consider this to be one month.

Well the Zodiac model of the cosmos is our 30 reference I expect. It is relating to the 360 day for a degree (and having to reset it at regular intervals). Thanks for this.

However, we know today the degree system does not work with our Gregorian solar calendar. Even we have not been able to get it totally accurate. Even with the inclusion of the leap year it still messes up as it is not exactly a quarter of a day we need to add each year.

Honestly, this is all antiquated. The Rabbi was writing as a very learned man of his time, no doubt, but we must accept that he and the Talmud have been overtaken with the facts of science. As much as I wish for some kind of possible divine knowledge that proves the existence of a divine intelligence interacting with humanity to reveal knowledge that no other source could have the ability to provide, I must state that to date there is no evidence that convinces me of this. This thread doesn't convince me either for the reasons I have stated.

I will of course continue to respect this ancient knowledge because we would not be where we are today without it. It is part of our collective learning process as a species.

a reply to: Devino

Tractate Brachot 32b

The Holy One, blessed be He, answered her: My daughter, twelve constellations have I created in the firmament, and for each constellation I have created thirty hosts, and for each host I have created thirty legions, and for each legion I have created thirty cohorts, and for each cohort I have created thirty maniples, and for each maniple I have created thirty camps, and to each camp I have attached three hundred and sixty-five thousands of myriads of stars, corresponding to the days of the solar year

Thats describing the stars and fractal nature of the galactic groups which are to be found within that section of the sky

a reply to: dashen

"three hundred and sixty-five thousands of myriads of stars, corresponding to the days of the solar year"

en.wikipedia.org...

"The Julian calendar has a regular year of 365 days divided into 12 months, as listed in Table of months. A leap day is added to February every four years. The Julian year is, therefore, on average 365.25 days long. It was intended to approximate the tropical (solar) year. Although Greek astronomers had known, at least since Hipparchus, a century before the Julian reform, that the tropical year was a few minutes shorter than 365.25 days, the calendar did not compensate for this difference. As a result, the year gained about three days every four centuries compared to observed equinox times and the seasons. This discrepancy was corrected by the Gregorian reform of 1582."

This tell us that the Rabbi was influenced by both the Zodiac Astronomy and the modern Julian Calendar which he must have been living by as it was well established by the times the Talmud was written as we knows the dates for it are 200AD and 500AD.

Op, are you starting to appreciate that the Rabbi was relying on human knowledge and understanding of his day, still stuck partly in the pseudo science of the Zodiac. The Zodiac is not actually very Hebrew at all. There is no stipulation about following this in Torah, not in Leviticus or Deuteronomy. There is a Law about NOT observing times and seasons and the Babylonian witch craft. See, how the Babylonian influence crept in after the Captivity. Then it was further influenced by the Greeks and the Romans.

This Rabbi is not your conventional Hebrew Scholar, more like a kind of gnostic of Judaism. He was a mystic who was using more than just his own Hebrew tradition. The closer we look at texts the more they enlighten us.

a reply to: dashen

I am not at all disappointed at your thread. I have actually learned some facts here about Lakish, The Talmud and the Zodiac in the ancient world, so I am very thankful. It shows how much these ancient texts still have to teach us and their worth as precious historical recording.

a reply to: Revolution9

Then it was very worth posting

It's interesting to say the least. Also interesting when it all seems to lead to Sumeria. That is the key. All of our religions come from Sumeria. That generalizing, sure, but in my mind, Sumeria is the key.

a reply to: amazing

Sumeria is said to have sprang up from a civilization destroyed in a great deluge. Atlantamuriacadia?

originally posted by: Revolution9
Well the Zodiac model of the cosmos is our 30 reference I expect. It is relating to the 360 day for a degree (and having to reset it at regular intervals). Thanks for this.

However, we know today the degree system does not work with our Gregorian solar calendar.

I agree, for the most part, with your assessment of this thread yet I also think things are far more complicated than they appear.

To quote the OP;

twelve constellations have I created in the firmament, and for each constellation I have created thirty hosts

I think that for the purpose of a logical discussion it’s imperative to assume that the 12 constellations refer to the zodiac. It then seems reasonable to assume that a host is a degree which would then mean that this is a calendrical measurement of time and not of a number of stars. This could be wrong, perhaps a host means star.

30 stars per constellation?
Of the 12 constellations the number of stars vary from 4 to 22, not 30 each. These consist of the largest magnitude stars yet there are many others in each constellation field. We could arbitrarily assign 30 stars yet this would not be accurate as there are potentially hundreds if not thousands. We could reduce this to all the stars of an observable magnitude yet the number 30 for each seems very unlikely.

30 galaxies per constellation?
In our local group there are approximately 30 galaxies yet this is strewn about throughout the sky, above and below the zodiac belt, and not isolated to each constellation. In other words this does not make sense. Without more information I think it is logical to assume that this is not a count of a number of stars nor galaxies.

As for the length of an Earth year is concerned this is more problematic than it first may appear. We measure a year as 365 days with the addition of 1 day every four years. There are problems with this so additional adjustments are necessary. The reason is that a solar year is actually 365.24219 days (not 365.25).

To further complicate this is the presence of ancient calendars with 360 days found throughout the world sometimes with 12 lunations of 30 days each, which is also slightly off. Apparently everyone had one; the Egyptians, Sumerians, Chinese, Maya…etc. The Torah and the KJV bible also mention this odd calendar.

Most of the examples of these observed 360 day calendars were from civilizations that were known to be good at math and astronomy, or in other words it was not a mistake in measurements. I believe that this is the origin of our 360° circle and coordinate system. I further believe that this is what the OP’s link consists of that has been misinterpreted by the author, Rabbi Alexander Seinfeld, in the original Link.

The mystery of these odd calendars continues yet it is going beyond the topic of this thread. Did Earth experience a 360 day year in early recorded history with the more recent addition of 5 1/4 "unlucky" days?

a reply to: Devino

It isto most certainly referring to the number of stars.
And does so by specifying the quadrants of the sky that it is referring to.
first to 12 constellations which fall within the sun's ecliptic.
the original Talmudic passage speaks in terms of military divisions.
So 12 signs would be twelve generals.
under them 30 commanders..
Each commander has 30 captains
Each captain has 30 sergeants
Each sergeant has 30 lt.
And each one of those has 360000 stars.

And all that is referring to about one-third of the sky

a reply to: Revolution9

365 day calendar has nothing to do with the Julian calendar.
the Julian calendar along with other solar calendars endeavors to enumerate the days of a full circle around the Sun.
Also for practical reasons it's impossible to include a quarter of a star in the count of stars.
Would it have made more sense if if they would have said 365.25 Stars?
I completely don't understand how you believe he came to the astronomical figure of 10 to the 18th power based on any type of knowledge available at the time.
There were only several thousand stars visible to the naked eye.
And galaxies appear as stars to the naked eye as well.
So for him to have came up with the number of stars contained in the section of the sky that is contained within the 12 constellations is an unexplainable mystery

a reply to: amazing

Civilization and Early advanced astronomical calculations do seem to lead back to Sumer and/ Ur, . Abraham the patriarch of the Jewish Arab and several other peoples was a monotheist. But according to the Talmud. There was a monotheistic tradition handed down from before Noah eventually to Shem(semites) and then his son Eber.. Abraham came to his realization independently.
Incidentally Abraham is the Patriarch that the OP is describing.
It is said that he was pulled up into space so that he would be able to see all of the stars.
And the Torah also describes this ridiculously large number.

a reply to: dashen
I am trying to understand your point but it’s not going well.

It isto most certainly referring to the number of stars.
And does so by specifying the quadrants of the sky that it is referring to.
first to 12 constellations which fall within the sun's ecliptic.
And all that is referring to about one-third of the sky

I find this very confusing, one quarter (quadrant), one twelfth or one third. Which is it? I assume we are referring to an area of a single constellation or 1/12 of the ecliptic. So what about the other numbers?

Going back to the external content you provided;

twelve constellations have I created in the firmament, and for each constellation I have created thirty hosts

What then is a host?
We can’t simply arbitrarily assign these numbers to irrelevant things and come up with a very large number and claim that this is proof of knowledge of Torah cosmology. If we are going to make sense of this we need to decipher the terms used, first of which would be "host". What are "thirty hosts"?

a reply to: Devino

In the original Hebrew Those words are military ranks.
In Biblical Hebrew one of The Creator's names is the L-rd of hosts. Hosts are legions of stars.
In a time when nearly all cultures worship the stars and heavenly movements there was knowledge in the Creator who was above all of those

originally posted by: dashen

In the original Hebrew Those words are military ranks.

Okay, got it. Thanks.

Hosts are legions of stars.

So a legion of stars is similar to a cluster? This appears to be like a Russian doll. Each object contains 30 smaller objects with each one of those containing 30 smaller objects and so on. The problem is that this does not compare to our current understanding of astronomy. I cannot seem to assign these military designations to astronomical objects.
The terms used are; constellation, host, legion, cohort, maniple and camp. None of which seem to represent a star which becomes apparent in the last line.

and to each camp I have attached three hundred and sixty-five thousands of myriads of stars

This last line is also very confusing. What does, "three hundred and sixty-five thousands of myriads", mean? Myriad means a large amount. 365,000 is also a large amount but why are they both plural? Is this redundant and grammatically incorrect or is there a misinterpreted meaning here?

a reply to: dashen

The Talmud itself relates that this information was handed down from previous generation, making the statement even more perplexing.

Yes I do agree with you completely. This not only astounds me but should be evidence that Torah is not a fairy story book as so many on ATS have postulated.

The telescope became available in 1608 so that in itself shows me that it is astounding just as you have said.

And who was this Shimon ben Lakish of 200 CE to 275 CE? He was the pupil and brother in law of Rabbi Yochanan who in turn was the pupil of Gamliel II. Gamliel II was the son of Gamliel I who was known as Gamliel the elder. It was the biblical Saul/Paul who sat under Gamliel I, the elder. of the school of Hillel.

Rabbi Shimon ben Lakish – also known as “Reish Lakish,” was a person of incredible physical strength, which led him to choose leadership of a band of highway-men as a career, until he encountered Rabbi Yochanan ben Nappachah. Rabbi Yochanan was swimming in the Yarden one day when he observed “Reish Lakish” and noted his leadership ability, his high intelligence and his potential for spirituality, as well as his strength. Reish Lakish jumped across the river, and Rabbi Yochanan exclaimed, “Your strength is for the Torah!” Not impressed by R. Yochanan’s declaration, “Reish Lakish” responded, “And your beauty is for the women!” Rabbi Yochanan saw that “Reish Lakish” was impressed by physical beauty and he proposed the following offer: He would give his sister, who he said was even more beautiful than he, in marriage to “Reish Lakish,” if the latter would abandon his life of crime and dedicate himself to the Torah.

Soncino -Talmud - Mas. Berachoth 32b
But Zion said, The Lord hath forsaken me, and the Lord hath forgotten me.19 Is not ‘forsaken’ the same as ‘forgotten’? Resh Lakish said: The community of Israel said before the Holy One, blessed be He: Sovereign of the Universe, when a man takes a second wife after his first, he still remembers the deeds of the first. Thou hast both forsaken me and forgotten me! The Holy One, blessed be He, answered her: My daughter, twelve constellations have I created in the firmament, and for each constellation I have created thirty hosts, and for each host I have created thirty legions, and for each legion I have created thirty cohorts, and for each cohort I have created thirty maniples, and for each maniple I have created thirty camps, and to each camp20 I have attached three hundred and sixty-five thousands of myriads of stars, corresponding to the days of the solar year, and all of them I have created only for thy sake, and thou sayest, Thou hast forgotten me and forsaken me! Can a woman forsake her sucking child [‘ullah]?21 Said the Holy One, blessed be He: Can I possibly forget the burn-offerings [‘olah] of rams and the firstborn of animals22 that thou didst offer to Me in the wilderness? She thereupon said: Sovereign of the Universe, since there is no forgetfulness before the Throne of Thy glory, perhaps Thou wilt not forget the sin of the Calf? He replied: ‘Yea, "these "23 will be forgotten’. She said before Him: Sovereign of the Universe, seeing that there is forgetfulness before the Throne of Thy glory, perhaps Thou wilt forget my conduct at Sinai? He replied to her: ‘Yet "the I"24 will not forget thee’. This agrees with what R. Eleazar said in the name of R. Oshaia: What is referred to by the text, ‘yea, "these" will be forgotten’? This refers to the sin of the Calf. ‘And yet "the I" will not forget thee’: this refers to their conduct at Sinai.

This then can give the reader a little more knowledge of where this Talmudic teaching was taught.

a reply to: Devino

The myriad in hebrew is "revava" means 10000

a reply to: dashen

There was and still is hidden knowledge. No doubt anymore in my mind that before 12.000 years ago there was a civilization that knew more than our geniuses at this moment about the celestial sky.
Knowledge that people like the oldest Egyptian priests probably kept secret to only a few groups of trustable people.
The greatest question to me is: why before say 10.000 years ago there is no single depiction of a crescent moon?
www.evawaseerst.be...

I am more concerned with lost knowledge due to Talmud, Bible and Koran.

Look into this topic: Lost knowledge due to religion

Interesting op. The 12 constellations does hint the the source is astrology which has also been found on 4,000–3,000 BC stone carvings in Armenia but the Armenians might have imported astrology from an even older race yet discovered.

originally posted by: SuperFrog
I am more concerned with lost knowledge due to Talmud, Bible and Koran.

Look into this topic: Lost knowledge due to religion

The Talmud is full of mentions of the greatest rabbis consulting with Greek doctors and other leading wise men of their time.
Some of the greatest rabbis mentioned in the Talmud are converts .
I think it is disingenuous and perhaps a bit ignorant to say that the Talmud is responsible for loss of knowledge