Somebody doesn't like the B-2

One more time here:

Lets keep to the topic at hand. If we want to have a discussion of the barbarism of Stalin we can go at it in a differnt thread. Stalin to my knowledge was not around when the B-2 was developed

I suggest you read this:
www.northstarcompass.org...

If you read into it, then research the errors of which he is pointing out, it comes together and you will see where the professors and such have exagerated figures. As for the rapes ? do you know nothing of the paine and suffering the Nazi's caused the people of Russia ? especially the Jews ?

Who cares about Commuinism I beleive in The 988 a.d.-1917 a.d. Orthodox Christian Russia I support THE TRUE RUSSKI Culture and nothing but IT ORTHODOX and The Tzar thats IT!!

[edit on 15-1-2005 by SiberianTiger]

Who cares about Communism ? you obviously do if you care enough to debate and make a fool of yourself over the MiG-29, which was created due to Communism. Tsar Russia was a Embarrasment.

The only credit I give is concerning facts about the WAR (WW2) I don't support Communism at ALL AND The JEWS WERE Reposible for it, now I wont say anything elese on this thread cuz Good Ol Fred T here might get upset, but if you want to talk debate about HOLY RUS 988 A.D.-1917A.D. I'll be more than HAPPY to just tell me were you wanna meet and I'LL be there on what ever thread?

Ok, how about we meet on the:

Nazi Jew hating thread ?

Does that sound alright with you ?

Alrighty next off topic post gets a warn

Well to get back on topic, I like the B-2. Its a very cool looking plain. Kinda strange how it looks remarkably similar to those ufos that were reported by that pilot. I cant remember his name, but it was realy famouse. It looked alot like the B-2 except it was more round.

Originally posted by W4rl0rD
What would america gain from lying? Nothing. What would yugoslavia gain from lying?

[edit on 15/1/05 by W4rl0rD]

Everybody gains a lot from lying..and we all know that america lies a lot about its military..thats why we have sites like ATS to address such grievances!!

Someone on the business end wouldnt like it either...

Ya like the casuality figuers I remember they said 21,000Casualities reported by hospital in Germany now they (U.S.A. Government-Media) brought it down to 10,000 I knew this was more PRPAGANDA so I did reserch and found this iraq2005.blogspot.com...

You're mixing up wounded soldiers with casualties...

And a blog is not a source for material.

Injured soldiers are sent to Germany for treatment. Many soldiers leaving Iraq go to Germany.

[edit on 16-1-2005 by Disturbed Deliverer]

Your NO longer taken as a serious Miltary knowledgable person so just get off this thread I'm posting for real knowladgable persons, anyways I said 4000 KIA a while back you said No proof well this guy disproved me it's 6000 kia so to all ATS members on this thred look at the link.

Who here considers your opinions valid at this point? I doubt even Dima does.

These stories talked about on your blog source were reported in the American media a while ago. The hospitals in Germany reported 20,000 soldiers treated. If you actually tried to follow what actually happens. you might know that.

**warning off topic for this thread.. (if that's even possible)**

Guys.. I'm failing to see the purpose of this thread anymore.. I mean really, you guys have strayed so far off the intended topic that I think it's best if you just disburse to separate threads in the more relevant forums...

The latest bunch of rubish has *nothing* to do with aviation in the slightest..

Originally posted by Croat56
Well to get back on topic, I like the B-2. Its a very cool looking plain. Kinda strange how it looks remarkably similar to those ufos that were reported by that pilot. I cant remember his name, but it was realy famouse. It looked alot like the B-2 except it was more round.

No one else thinks this is interesting?

Your NO longer taken as a serious Miltary knowledgable person

I can't get my breath

^^^ Ohh shut up!!....Language no bar!!!

Originally posted by Daedalus3
Nobody really answered my question there..

How does one shoot down an aircraft with a GUIDED missile by fluke?

The closest thing I've got to an answer is that it flew the same path every day..which amounts to the serbs practising skeet shooting with SAMs??

Really did they just skeet shoot (dumbfire) it or was it a guided lock??

Daedalus,
I don't know if I really want to post on this thread or not the way things have been going ~ But I would like to try to answer your question...

First off, Like Disturbed Deliverer, I too believe the shooting down of F-117 #806 82-0806 over Budjenovici, Yugoslavia was a fluke.

By "fluke" I mean that it is rare occurence probably not to be repeated - It demonstrates great tactical behavior by the Serbs and a lesson well taught to USAF strategists.

Quick Review of Theories:

There have been many theories by industry professionals and mil/aviation enthusiasts alike concerning the shootdown. One of the more popular theories concerns the bomb-bay door jamming, thus giving the SA-3 missile something to lock on to.

Another theory that has been widespread is that AAA shrapnel damaged the outer skin of the stealth airframe, thus enlarging the plane's RCS enough to give the SA-3 missile something to lock on to.

Yet another theory is that either an SA-3 or SA-6 SA-3 was visually guided into near proximity to the stealth fighter.
The SA-3 missile was most likely the culprit in bringing the plane down although some have speculated that it could have been an SA-6 - in any case it bears mentioning that both of these air defense missiles have optical guidance backup systems for use in heavy ECM environments - such could also be used for a stealth aircraft.
(SA-3: LOW BLOW fire controls are fitted with 25 km range TV guidance)
(SA-6: STRAIGHT FLUSH fire controls are fitted with 30 km range TV guidance)

The Pentagon Briefing:

On Tuesday, April 20th, 1999, USAF Maj. Gen. B. Carlson,Dir. Operational Requirements had a press briefing regarding the shooting down of F-117 #806 82-0806.
In the briefing the General while not adhering to the bomb-bay door not closing all the way did allude to the increased RCS of the F-117 when the bay door is opened,as well as stating that he had not ruled out a mechanical error. (the F-117 was just returning from a bombing run near Belgrade).
The General also stated that the first generation stealth aircraft such as the F-117 were specifically designed against the X-band targeting radar threat. Other bandwidths such as low-freq radar can see first gen stealth easier but these bandwidths were not used for targeting by Serbian SAM operators.
(note: I have not found a link to this briefing yet - I'm going by a hardcopy)

The Investigation Assessment:

To some it was apparent that Gen Carlson's press briefing came as official damage control after David A. Fulghum, of Aviation Week & Space Technology's Washington office published an article on the results of the Pentagon's investigation into the F-117's shootdown.

According to his sources, F-117 #806 82-0806 was hit on the 4th night of the conflict about 30miles outside of Belgrade after finishing its bombing run for the night.
Mr. Fulghum wrote that the official Pentagon investigation showed that it took a combination of circumstances to bring the down F-117.

Some of those circumstances are as follows...

F-117 #806 82-0806 took the same exit route 4 nights in a row. One anonymous defense analyst he interviewed said, "They flew the same route over and over."
Other analysts involved in the investigation say the Serbs were getting nightly radar hits while the F-117 had its weapons bays open.
"They were able to develop snapshot tracks of the F-117's exit route from the target during the three previous nights..." - "They simply moved the battery under the route."

Additionally there is apparent evidence that the US had inadequate ECW deployed in the area to properly aid in the F-117's exit. A Navy EA-6B Prowler was assigned to jam SAM radars but at the time of the shootdown the EA-6B was too far away to be effective.

The "Covey Shot" - A Classic Tactic:

So there was the Serbian air defense sitting directly under the flight path of the F-117, and in the words of one Defense official the Serb battery launched three or four missiles in what is called a "covey shot" - this is a non-radar aided technique used in heavy ECM environments.

If SAM operators don't have a good fix on a target, they will salvo their missiles. You can command the warhead to detonate at a specific altitude.
It is believed that one of the missiles detonated close enough to the F-117 that shrapnel caused catastrophic failure of the engines or the "fly-by-wire" system making the F-117 uncontrollable.

What is for sure is that the SA-3 did not actually hit the aircraft or it would have been obliterated, instead it was largely intact other than being inverted and pancaked on the ground - apparently from a flat uncontrolled spin.

The Pilot's Perspective:

To further support this the pilot reported being buffeted by negative g-forces that he estimated at five times the weight of gravity which made it nearly impossible to eject. "I always strap in very tightly, but because of the intense g-forces, I was hanging in the straps and had to stretch to reach the handles. The one fragment of this whole event I can't remember is pulling the handles."

Personal Views:

I hope this information answers more questions than it generates and I also hope that the arguing that has marred this thread will not be perpetuated by my post.
There is no doubt that this is strictly from a US viewpoint, but some of the following info comes from AW&ST magazine which is generally known to be very objective...

Pleasant Regards,

Natalie

___________________________


"F-117 Shootdown": Pentagon Briefing April 20, 1999, Maj.Gen. B. Carlson, USAF

"Pentagon On F-117 Shootdown": AW&ST - April 19, 1999

"SA-3, LOW BLOW fire control" optical guidance: FAS. Org

"SA-6, STRAIGHT FLUSH fire control: optical guidance: FAS. Org







[edit on 17-1-2005 by intelgurl]

Thanks for this quality reply Intelgurl, makes a nice change round here