The True Wisdom of God

Greetings Atser’s…


There are many of us out there, who have a deep understanding of God, and who recognize that we are ALL spiritual beings, having a physical life experience here on this Earth…but of course no one starts out with this kind of knowledge or experience in the beginning; It’s something which must be sought out, through personal journey and enquiry…i.e. by seeking the truth.

This life is like a slide/ride that you go on, in order for your Spirit or collective Soul to experience a life here. The only catch is, is that you don’t want to be remembering how the universe was created or what your collective soul knows or remembers etc…because otherwise you wouldn’t be able to enjoy this particular life experience…

And just like life, the slide/ride has to come to an end eventually. This is because you (the real spiritual you) wouldn’t want to be trapped in this life experience for ever; plus there are other experiences to enjoy, live and learn through, in other infinite worlds and realms, that are all within the Kingdom of Heaven (which btw - your in and a part of right now) which is the many mansions that Jesus spoke about IMO…Your own progression along with the Fathers guidance, will dictate/decide where you go to next…

Getting back to the catch; the problem with forgetting our true spiritual nature within this life experience, is that we become removed from that true knowledge of God…This is why the Laws (which admittedly had an even older origin IMO) in the Old Testament were brought in…to help guide people into walking a righteous path…

The law givers; (the Pharisees) of course knew the real spiritual truths IMO…as is hinted at in this verse below…

Matthew 23:13
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

I think in Jesus time, the Law givers (Pharisees) were no longer helping people to find the real truth, but were instead abusing their power, position and creating extra laws which were not in alignment with God/Spirit…which is why Jesus accused them of following the Father of Lies.

Jesus teachings tried to help people get back to the true knowledge of God, which was lost in the Garden of Eden story/parable…this is why Jesus teaches us to seek the truth and become born of God…through the Spirit…


This is where the True Wisdom of God comes into play though…IMO

Because of the nature of experiencing this life and forgetting our true source before we come here etc…the laws and people believing in God by faith (to begin with) are all a necessary aspect of keeping the Kingdom of God in check, so to speak. Fiath is only meant to be a starting point IMO…

Jesus described faith as a mustard seed…but he also taught us to seek the truth, which IMO means people aren’t meant to remain in their faith. Faith starts out as a seed, but all seeds are meant to grow (through seeking) into a tree; the tree of knowledge.

So to re-iterate what I stated above, no one start’s out with this knowledge of God. So things like believing by faith, and being kept in check by threats of Hell etc is what keeps people from doing evil things. Not an ideal situation, I will admit, but the laws are a necessary starting point IMO…

It’s only when the heart begins to seek the truth and question those things above, i.e. the literal interpretations, does the true love of God and your spiritual connection to him, slowly begin to become known within you. And you begin to recognize that those verses about hell (among many others), were really just metaphors and were never meant to be taken literally. In short, you’ve now grown up spiritually.

Thus it’s your journey and the testing of your own heart which reveals the real truth within you…There’s like a deeper Wisdom to it all though overall, because all of those negative (untrue) aspects are a necessary evil, and starting point, that every person needs to work through, in order to get to the real spiritual truths of themselves and God etc…This is what I mean in my thread title by “The true Wisdom of God”…


Jesus parable of the prodigal son is the perfect example of this…here’s a few verses below…

Luke 15
22 “But the father said to his servants, ‘Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. 23 Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let’s have a feast and celebrate. 24 For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ So they began to celebrate.

Luke 15
31 “‘My son,’ the father said, ‘you are always with me, and everything I have is yours. 32 But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’”

The story is really describing the journey from one point to another. All of those apects are necessary to get from one point to the other. Through the trials of life, the ups and the downs etc…we become troubled, (because we sense something is wrong or missing) this sparks the seeking, until eventually the knowledge of God becomes known, which is the Father/Spirit connection within us. Where once we were dead (living only for the flesh etc…) we now become alive in the Spirit, we realize we are a Son/Daughter of God…and the Laws become written in our hearts…

God’s helper, the Holy Spirit comes when we need help or guidance or when we become troubled in this life experience. It’s kind of like the system computer in the Star Treck holodeck episodes, where the computer helps guide the crew at different times on their journies…


Thanks for reading….


Peace be with you all…


- JC

IMO... Or... Rather In My Experience(s)... I Found That God Has, As With Freemasons, Seven Arts Which Lead To The Full Understanding Of My Existence...
Can Not Be The Same For Everyone... But Everyone Prospers In My (IMO) Journey.

Not a bad thread. I am thinking this is a roller coaster ride though. Not in faith but in health.

a reply to: Joecroft

Wisdom of A God? True wisdom does not require words from a fake God.

a reply to: Joecroft

Out of curiosity, what evidence made you difinitively certain that Yahweh is the one true God, instead of, say; Krishna, Isis, Zeus, Odin, Allah (and so on)?

a reply to: Pinocchio

Originally posted by Pinocchio
IMO... Or... Rather In My Experience(s)... I Found That God Has, As With Freemasons, Seven Arts Which Lead To The Full Understanding Of My Existence...

Can Not Be The Same For Everyone... But Everyone Prospers In My (IMO) Journey.

Hmmmm…They must be some incredible Seven Arts you have there, to get a FULL understanding of your Existence…how did you manage it…?

I’m certainly not one to deny that there are other paths of Wisdom that can lead one to truth including Freemasonry…but a large portion of the world starts out from Christianity…which I believe contains much of Gods hidden Wisdom, if only people could discern it…


- JC

a reply to: soulpowertothendegree

Originally posted by soulpowertothendegree
Wisdom of A God? True wisdom does not require words from a fake God.

Exactly, true Wisdom comes from the One True God…the words that Jesus spoke have hidden truth and Wisdom in them, which lead people to the real truth of God, if they can discern it…

In other words, I’m not talking about some big bad entity called Yahweh or Jehovah etc…they are fake and man made…like I was stating in other parts of my OP, that was all part of mans corruption, where the Pharisees abused their power and position by keeping the real truth of God hidden from people etc...


- JC

a reply to: Ghost147

Originally posted by Ghost147
Out of curiosity, what evidence made you difinitively certain that Yahweh is the one true God, instead of, say; Krishna, Isis, Zeus, Odin, Allah (and so on)?

I never stated anywhere in my OP that Yahweh is the one true God…

See my reply to soulpowertothendegree above…


- JC

a reply to: Joecroft

You quoted several verses in the Bible as evidence, and when you referenced one of them, you stated "The law givers; (the Pharisees) of course knew the real spiritual truths IMO…as is hinted at in this verse below… ". Pharisees are Jews, thus they believe in Yahweh.

I'm not sure how you could not also believe Yahweh is the true god if you stated that the Pharisees knew the real spiritual truths. Or am I misunderstanding your implications?

a reply to: Ghost147

Originally posted by Ghost147
I'm not sure how you could not also believe Yahweh is the true god if you stated that the Pharisees knew the real spiritual truths. Or am I misunderstanding your implications?

You’re misunderstanding the implications laid out in my OP…which is an easy mistake to make…I'm not a Christian, I’m more of a Gnostic…

My premise is that the Pharisees abused their power and position, gave God a name etc…when God is really the Eternal Father/Spirit and has no name…I’m saying the Pharisees knew the real hidden truths about God, but kept it hidden and secret…it’s all there in my OP…well, most of it anyway…

If you re-read my OP carefully, you’ll also see that the laws were given, because of the nature of our existence here, i.e. not knowing our divine connection to God…the Laws were put in place, because the knowledge of God is something that they/we/us must be seek out and work towards…


But from a higher perspective, I’m also stating that certain aspects of the Jesus teachings are “Wisdom Personified”, in that when people view them literally and begin to realize that something isn’t right, this then acts as a catalyst to start them questioning and seeking out Gods real truth. They then slowly begin to see and understand the real truth behind Jesus metaphors and parables, by having it revealed to them by the Sprit of God…



- JC

originally posted by: Joecroft


Because of the nature of experiencing this life and forgetting our true source before we come here etc…the laws and people believing in God by faith (to begin with) are all a necessary aspect of keeping the Kingdom of God in check, so to speak. Fiath is only meant to be a starting point IMO… Jesus described faith as a mustard seed…but he also taught us to seek the truth, which IMO means people aren’t meant to remain in their faith. Faith starts out as a seed, but all seeds are meant to grow (through seeking) into a tree; the tree of knowledge.

I see where you are going... let me just in here with a few thoughts.

First, faith is not BELIEF. Knowing Who You Are & KNOWING GOD, does not mean that FAITH is no longer needed.... but it does mean that our hopeful BELIEFS are replaced with certainty and KNOWING. We can be certain and still act on FAITH, indeed this is the important different between Belief and Faith, the former is does not require action, that latter does.

Second, the Abraham Covenant has ended. Jesus came to establish his New Covenant, and that is the fulfillment of LAW, it is the End of the old covenant made with Abraham. This means all the LAWS and RULES that Jews had to follow do not apply to us who are in the New Covenant sealed with Jesus blood. We are free, we are at LIBERTY.

Thirdly, you speak of "the tree of knowledge" springing from a person mustard seed faith, and replacing the need for faith. I get your meaning but... Let me remind you the original sin had to do with the human desire to know good and evil -- it was NOT our desire to KNOW WHAT GOD KNOWS that got us in trouble and resulted in Paradise Lost, rather it was our desire to JUDGE, to divide true and false. It was our DESIRE to be as GOD (our desire to not need GOD) that got us into trouble. We wanted to KNOW EVERYTHING but our childish minds could only separate and judge, we are not mature enough yet to handle the Truth. The world of Fear and Attack is proof were don't KNOW the truth, instead we live in a world of illusion, deception, and false authority. We have created a hell with our so-called "knowledge" and more of the same is not going to solve the problem.

IMO---We came into this physical world to experience separation, to experience both good and evil, and to KNOW (by experience) what OTHER THAN HEAVEN could feel like as we find our way back to Source. In may ways, it seem as if our time here is a punishment, like we have been cast out of heaven and into hell, and that this world is that hell. It feels that way to me, but regardless of that we do know it is a place of hardship and struggle. We are hear to learn, to grow, and to rise above our childish fear and need to attack others. We are here to Choose Life, to make that free will choice to return to Source.

It’s only when the heart begins to seek the truth and question those things ( i.e. the literal interpretations) does the true love of God and your spiritual connection to him, slowly begin to become known within you. And you begin to recognize that those verses about hell (among many others), were really just metaphors and were never meant to be taken literally. In short, you’ve now grown up spiritually.

Yes it is quit a wild ride.


“The seeming imperfections of Earth, the hazards and inequalities of life, the cruelty, harshness and apparent indifference to suffering and affliction are not what they seem; as it is Earth is perfect for its purpose. It is ignorance of that purpose which makes it appear imperfect.”
― Kolbrin BIble

a reply to: Joecroft

I strongly agree with you... and don't deny there is more...
But my point is only my part in the telling.
They are not mystical nor astounding. Just experiences.
A full understanding indeed....

a reply to: wasaka

Originally posted by wasaka
I see where you are going... let me just in here with a few thoughts.

First, faith is not BELIEF. Knowing Who You Are & KNOWING GOD, does not mean that FAITH is no longer needed.... but it does mean that our hopeful BELIEFS are replaced with certainty and KNOWING.

There’s 2 types of faith though. One type is having faith that God is real/true, and the other type of faith, is having faith that God will do things to help you in your everyday life.

The former though can become known within, and when this occurs you no longer walk in faith, wondering if God is real or not…but you will still of course have the latter type of faith, in regards to the things that God will do in your life etc…

Originally posted by wasaka
We can be certain and still act on FAITH, indeed this is the important different between Belief and Faith, the former is does not require action, that latter does.

Faith can lead to belief though…that’s the problem…And also if someone is certain about something, then there is no faith being exercised…

Originally posted by wasaka
Second, the Abraham Covenant has ended. Jesus came to establish his New Covenant, and that is the fulfillment of LAW, it is the End of the old covenant made with Abraham. This means all the LAWS and RULES that Jews had to follow do not apply to us who are in the New Covenant sealed with Jesus blood. We are free, we are at LIBERTY.

But you’re only at LIBERTY, when you receive the Holy Spirit…Only when a person receives it, do the Laws get written on their hearts. So in way everyone living by faith, is still being guided by the old Laws…i.e. they’re still effectively in/under the first Covenant IMO…

Christians call it the First and Second covenant…but like I was saying in my OP, no one starts off with the knowledge of God (Received Holy Spirit) because it’s a work in progress…Which means everyone's base starting point is the written Laws themselves…until they progress beyond them…

Originally posted by wasaka
Thirdly, you speak of "the tree of knowledge" springing from a person mustard seed faith, and replacing the need for faith. I get your meaning but...

Let me remind you the original sin had to do with the human desire to know good and evil -- it was NOT our desire to KNOW WHAT GOD KNOWS that got us in trouble and resulted in Paradise Lost, rather it was our desire to JUDGE, to divide true and false.

It doesn’t remove the need for faith i.e. the second type (of Faith) that I described above…but it does remove the “is there a God…?” type of faith…

The point with the analogy, is that seeds start small but never remain seeds (faith) but grow up into trees…and trees represent knowledge, so one goes from a faith, to a knowledge or knowing God…

In the Adam and Eve story the tree is seen as bad, but it does contain the knowledge of good AND evil…which encompasses a complete knowledge of God…it’s a similar parallel to what I’m trying to point out in my OP, in that you need the bad to help direct you towards knowing the Good…which is Wisdom…

With the “Fall of man” he/she sought the lower aspects of the knowledge of God, instead of the higher spiritual ones…but again, through both, Wisdom is achieved…

Originally posted by wasaka
It was our DESIRE to be as GOD (our desire to not need GOD) that got us into trouble. We wanted to KNOW EVERYTHING but our childish minds could only separate and judge, we are not mature enough yet to handle the Truth. The world of Fear and Attack is proof were don't KNOW the truth, instead we live in a world of illusion, deception, and false authority. We have created a hell with our so-called "knowledge" and more of the same is not going to solve the problem.

Yes, we have followed after our own carnal “knowledge” and things of the flesh…rather than seeking the “knowledge of God”…seeking Wisdom and knowledge from God is covered quite a bit in the Old Testament…It’s what we should all be striving for in this world…

Originally posted by wasaka
IMO---We came into this physical world to experience separation, to experience both good and evil, and to KNOW (by experience) what OTHER THAN HEAVEN could feel like as we find our way back to Source.

Yes, but the separation is only an illusion, people are free to connect to God at any time…the only reason we forget is to enjoy this life experience…Once you connect to God source though, you realise you’re actually in the Kingdom of God right here and now…

Originally posted by wasaka
In may ways, it seem as if our time here is a punishment, like we have been cast out of heaven and into hell, and that this world is that hell. It feels that way to me, but regardless of that we do know it is a place of hardship and struggle. We are hear to learn, to grow, and to rise above our childish fear and need to attack others. We are here to Choose Life, to make that free will choice to return to Source.

Hell is really living in Sheol, the lowest carnal mind set, where you don’t know that you are an eternal spiritual being, existing within the Kingdom of God…

This world is a largely a Hell because the majority of people are living in that mind set…they’re projecting out, what is currently within them…

If everyone became born of God, everything around us would radically start to change…I’m not saying it would become perfect overnight, but it would become a much more loving and spiritual place to be and live in…When this begins to happen the Kingdom of Heaven would start to reign on the Earth…



- JC

Great post. I S&F'd you a day or two ago but am just now getting around to a reply!

I agree with your post for the most part except that I believe we all start off with divine "knowledge", only we lose it as we grow up and are shaped by the environment we find ourselves in. This is why young kids can remember past lives more than adults, because they are just coming from the source and certain knowledge is imprinted onto their souls for a time.

It's kind of like looking at a light for a minute or two and then looking away only to see the negative "shadow" of the light still lingering in your vision until it fades away after a certain period of time. When babies are born, they just came from looking at the light (source) and the light leaves an imprint (memories of past lives) on them, which is why they can recall certain memories from a past life, because that "shadow" is still part of their vision. The "shadow" fades over time though, which is why we forget these past lives. Hopefully you understand what I mean by this analogy.

I agree with everything else though.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
Great post. I S&F'd you a day or two ago but am just now getting around to a reply!

Thanks…

I wasn’t sure how people would take it, or whether they'd even understand what I meant by “Gods Wisdom”, in my OP…

To me, the more I think about it, the more sense it makes overall…more of the jigsaw pieces fit together this way…that’s for sure…

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
I agree with your post for the most part except that I believe we all start off with divine "knowledge", only we lose it as we grow up and are shaped by the environment we find ourselves in. This is why young kids can remember past lives more than adults, because they are just coming from the source and certain knowledge is imprinted onto their souls for a time.

Yeah, I guess that is probably true…as our schooling systems teach us predominately how to use our left brains…which incorporates things like facts, logic and analysis etc…while the right brain, which connects us to our intuition, and imagination tends to get dumbed down…

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
It's kind of like looking at a light for a minute or two and then looking away only to see the negative "shadow" of the light still lingering in your vision until it fades away after a certain period of time. When babies are born, they just came from looking at the light (source) and the light leaves an imprint (memories of past lives) on them, which is why they can recall certain memories from a past life, because that "shadow" is still part of their vision. The "shadow" fades over time though, which is why we forget these past lives. Hopefully you understand what I mean by this analogy.


I agree with everything else though.

There seems to be a lot more recent documented evidence of young children having had past life experiences. From what I can recall from watching one documentary a while back, as the child gets older these memories do indeed begin to fade away…


So Yeah, I agree…and your analogy makes perfect sense…


- JC

Joe,
I think you are very sincere in what you believe however it is just more “religion”belief through faith, it is not KNOWING the creator God.You have simply created another God in your own image(just like everyone else).Seeking a God will only lead you to YOUR God..you…. which is not the creator God in the least.Your dissertation of wisdom is based in the foundation of religion(in your case Christianity and now “your” Gnosticism ) which is false or you would “know” many of your statements are fallacious.

You said the Jewish pharisees knew the creator God but hid that knowledge then abused their “power” however nothing could be further from the truth.If someone “knew” the Truth they could NEVER twist it because that is the anthesis of “knowing it”.Yahoshua continuously pointed out over and over ad nauseum to his disciples the Jewish pharisees did not “know” the father(the creator God at all…nor did anyone else.

The fact is the Jewish pharisees did not know the creator God at all.They too had created a God in their own image(as have ALL of mankind).It is created by what Yahoshua called the devil(diabolo) which is a channel(conduit) i.e. the carnal mind..the brain… that is traversed through.This devil is a satan(an adversary) to the knowledge of God.

The fact is whatever you seek you will find and it will ALWAYS be your belief through faith i.e. your religion because THAT is mans nature because the amalgamation of ALL of a persons experiences form their belief through faith of “their” Belief System religion.In other words it is just “mankind” acting according to their nature through their own personal character.The truth has ZERO to do with the pseudo spirituality religion man believes.

Yahoshua was not trying to teach “spirituality” he was destroying it.He clearly stated to the disciples in the explanation of the parable of the seed(the word) sown in the soil it had been “given”(not sought or studied) to ONLY the disciples(the chosen few) to KNOW the kingdom of their “heavens”(their mind) and to everyone else what he said was to blind and deafen them….yet..who listens to that.ALL of Christianity believes THEY alone KNOW the creator God through “their” faith yet Yahoshua vehemently states the opposite and of course, history is the proof Yahoshua is correct.Christians especially do no not “know the creator God because they are deceived and are antichrist(in place of the anointing) as Yahoshua stated(and later John):

“Do not be deceived. For MANY will come in my name saying they are christ and deceive many”.

This is obviously a very pointed truth to ALL of Christianity and the fringe (like gnostics and light people christ believers etc etc..).The christ(anointing) many believe in is completely false and the God everyone believes in is not the real creator God in the least because they are deceived and are deceivers.That is the state of mans conundrum.It is IMPOSSIBLE for man to “know” the creator God by belief through faith because it is the antithesis of knowing(not religious gnosis) yet man perceives EVERYTHING through belief through faith.

There is only one way and truth to know the creator God….when it is revealed by the creator God just as it was revealed to the disciples and GIVEN for them to know the mysteries of the kingdom of their heavens(mind).The 1st mystery revealed was….you don’t KNOW anything and can’t through your mind(religion)!! However this knowing of their heavens did not happen immediately to the disciples.Yahoshua told them many more parables(which he said the seed sown n the soil was the key parable) yet they didn’t understand ANYTHING he said!!

How presumptuous of Christians to think because they “believe” in Jesus(the man of their religion) they KNOW the creator God yet the disciples didn’t.Yahoshua NEVER said the creator God the father can be known through belief.He very clearly stated to some Jews that “believed in him”

“If you continued in my word[deliverance/salvation...not teaching] you will truly be my disciples and then you will KNOW the truth and THEN the truth will make you free”.

The fact is Yahoshua NEVER said he “believed” in the creator God he only stated others will.He only knew the father he never made statements of belief or faith about himself.The disciples at that time still only believed.The apostle John came as close to “knowing” the creator God as possible.That is why he was the disciple who was “loved”(known) by Yahoshua(who is NOT the creator God)…not Peter…..John is the person that lays the groundwork(parable of the seed) of knowing.He “knows” thing the others don’t.He is the only one with the balls to accompany Yahoshua at his crucifixion and was given charge of Yahoshua’s mother because the father revealed the “kingdom” of his heavens.

The experiences of the “chosen few”(the disciples) was completely unique to this day.It was given to only them to “know” the mysteries of the kingdom of their heavens in this age(the physical realm).It is hubris of the highest order to believe that knowing the creator God can be obtained by ANY method of religion(mans nature).That is what the disciples were being freed (forgiven) from…their Belief System(BS) religion!!

That is the purpose of Yahoshua which means Yahweh(the creator God) is deliverance/salvation.The religious carnal mind of man(the devil) believe they can deliver themselves by “practicing” their religion by methods.However what they cannot know is their religion is the prison they are bound in!!They believe it is all about morals and ethics because they have gorged themselves on the fruit(seed) of the the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.That is man making themselves GOD in their own image.

Yahoshua(Yahweh’s deliverance) came into the material realm of the physical universe to “deliver” ALL of creation(including ALL of mankind) from Hades which means the grave….the realm of death…. and imperception..their religion.He did NOT come to condemn the world(the physical realms creation) but to SAVE it.The religious carnal mind is gorged on their belief of morals and ethics and believe they have been saved by belief through faith of religious doctrines of their just punishment when the fact is..nothing(with all the other lies) could be further from the truth.EVERYONE is 100% accountable for ALL they do.None will be exonerated by being “pardoned” of their guilt.Forgiveness means being freed from bondage(death and imperception) not pardoned of guilt that is Christianity’s definition co-opted by the world.This is wisdom…

“Vanity of vanities all is vanity[meaningless].What profit has a man of all his labor which he takes under the sun?”

…Solomon was purported to be the wisest man who ever lived because of one reason… he KNEW he was the biggest fool and KNEW nothing(just as Socrates).It took a lifetime of foolishness to be freed of that gigantic lie…then he died.Wisdom is knowing the Truth….. not believing religion..any religion.

originally posted by: Joecroft
a reply to: wasaka

Originally posted by wasaka
I see where you are going... let me just in here with a few thoughts.

Second, the Abraham Covenant has ended. Jesus came to establish his New Covenant, and that is the fulfillment of LAW, it is the End of the old covenant made with Abraham. This means all the LAWS and RULES that Jews had to follow do not apply to us who are in the New Covenant sealed with Jesus blood. We are free, we are at LIBERTY.

But you’re only at LIBERTY, when you receive the Holy Spirit…Only when a person receives it, do the Laws get written on their hearts. So in way everyone living by faith, is still being guided by the old Laws…i.e. they’re still effectively in/under the first Covenant IMO…

Christians call it the First and Second covenant…but like I was saying in my OP, no one starts off with the knowledge of God (Received Holy Spirit) because it’s a work in progress…Which means everyone's base starting point is the written Laws themselves…until they progress beyond them…

Over all I tend to agree with your views.

Here is Jonathan Welton quote about the "Wrath of God":


Considering that no Scriptures point to God’s wrath being poured out at the cross, we must consider another question: What do we understand from the New Testament regarding the wrath of God? By studying every passage on wrath in the New Testament, I found that wrath is connected to the Law (the Old Covenant). This is seen very clearly, for example, in Romans 4:15, which says, “For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.”

Clearly, the wrath of God is an Old Covenant Law-based concept. When wrath is mentioned in the New Testament, it is consistently used to point to the coming destruction of Jerusalem, the final outpouring of God’s wrath. For example, in Matthew 3:7 and Luke 3:7, John the Baptist rebukes the Pharisees and speaks of their future destruction in AD 70, saying that the axe is already laid to the root and they won’t be saved by claiming Abraham as their father. He goes on to say of AD 70, “Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?” Similarly, in Luke 21:23, Jesus speaks of the AD 70 massacre of Jerusalem and refers to it as the great distress and the “wrath upon the people.”

Thus, we can see that the wrath of God was not poured out on the cross, but it was poured out at the destruction of Jerusalem. The death of the perfect Lamb on the cross has provided us with a New Covenant of forgiveness. By contrast, the Old Covenant provided Laws that, when broken, caused the wrath of God to come upon people. For those standing inside Christ in the New Covenant, there is absolutely no wrath, judgment, or anger. Yet for those in the first century who were not willing to enter into the New Covenant, who rather killed Jesus and persecuted the early Church, an accumulation of wrath was building up against them. In fact, Jesus went so far as to essentially say that all the sin of the Old Testament would be held to the account of the AD 70 generation (see Matt. 23:35–36).

To further understand the period of time between Jesus’ death on the cross (the inauguration of the New Covenant) and the wrath of God poured out at the destruction of Jerusalem (the end of the Old Covenant), let’s look at a sometimes confusing reality: The Old and New Covenants coexisted for forty years.

www.phildrysdale.com...

Welton writes, "I believe the second most significant event in Christian history (the death and resurrection being foremost) was the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. From Christ’s prophecy of the destruction of the Temple in Matthew 24 until its fulfillment, there was a forty-year period of transition (AD 30–70). Theologians refer to this time as a transition generation, a time when the Old Covenant was fading out and the New Covenant was rising..."

The first century Jews who received witness of their Savior, but refused to accept Him, were the “children of disobedience.” They clung to the Law and the Old Covenant and, therefore, chose to be judged with it, bringing the wrath of God upon themselves. Some of the statements in the New Testament were written from the perspective of the Old Covenant and the Law rather than the gospel of grace.

The Old Covenant was forever destroyed by the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 (as described in Revelation and Matthew 24). Revelation 15:1 indicates the complete removal of God’s wrath and the passing away of the law. God does not have any more wrath to pour out on the earth, ever. (All that remains is the final judgment before the throne of God.)

When a believer sins, God responds with grace, not judgment.

a reply to: Rex282

Originally posted by Rex282

Joe,
I think you are very sincere in what you believe however it is just more “religion”belief through faith, it is not KNOWING the creator God.You have simply created another God in your own image(just like everyone else).

Seeking a God will only lead you to YOUR God..you…. which is not the creator God in the least.Your dissertation of wisdom is based in the foundation of religion(in your case Christianity and now “your” Gnosticism ) which is false or you would “know” many of your statements are fallacious.

I didn’t seek “a God”…I sought the truth about God that Jesus spoke of in the New Testament…

I don’t have a faith or a belief…I have Knowledge, Wisdom and Understanding…which came directly from the Spirit of God…

Plus, what I posted in my OP, isn’t even believed by any religion out there, that I’m aware of…

Originally posted by Rex282
You said the Jewish pharisees knew the creator God but hid that knowledge then abused their “power” however nothing could be further from the truth.If someone “knew” the Truth they could NEVER twist it because that is the anthesis of “knowing it”.

What…?!?!…so someone can’t know the truth and yet hide it away…is that what you're suggesting…?

The following passage below proves you wrong…

Matthew 23:13
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

There’s only one way men could shut the Kingdom of God away and prevent others from finding/entering it…and that’s if they knew the truth…but were keeping it hidden from others…

Originally posted by Rex282
Yahoshua continuously pointed out over and over ad nauseum to his disciples the Jewish pharisees did not “know” the father(the creator God at all…nor did anyone else.

I think you’re referring to John 8…but that’s only one passage…

There were differing levels of hierarchy among the Pharisees…the ones Jesus spoke with in John 8 most likely weren’t aware of the Father…but the Law givers mentioned in Matthew 23 verse 13, clearly were IMO…

Originally posted by Rex282
The fact is the Jewish pharisees did not know the creator God at all.They too had created a God in their own image(as have ALL of mankind).It is created by what Yahoshua called the devil(diabolo) which is a channel(conduit) i.e. the carnal mind..the brain… that is traversed through.This devil is a satan(an adversary) to the knowledge of God.

Yes, the Pharisees in John 8 didn’t know the Father, they were believing in the lie (i.e the Religion taught about God) given by the Law givers…

Originally posted by Rex282
Yahoshua was not trying to teach “spirituality” he was destroying it.He clearly stated to the disciples in the explanation of the parable of the seed(the word) sown in the soil it had been “given”(not sought or studied) to ONLY the disciples(the chosen few) to KNOW the kingdom of their “heavens”(their mind) and to everyone else what he said was to blind and deafen them….yet..who listens to that.

The passage you’re referring to above is Matthew 13:11-13…

Matthew 13:11-13
11 He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12 Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables:
“Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand.

This is very similar to what my thread premises is all about. The kingdom was taught in parables, so that people would meditate on the words/parables and then seek Gods truth in them…this is because God is something that must be sought out by people…

It was only blind to everyone else because the weren’t seeking, nor were they trying to understand…if you think about the words in that above passage, (Matthew 13:11-13) it states “though hearing”…so clearly the message was being heard by “others” than just the disciples themselves; the “others” were just blind to it, because they lacked understanding…

If you think the Kingdom of God was available for the disciples to know ONLY, then you are very far away from the truth…IMO

Originally posted by Rex282
…
That is the state of mans conundrum.It is IMPOSSIBLE for man to “know” the creator God by belief through faith because it is the antithesis of knowing(not religious gnosis) yet man perceives EVERYTHING through belief through faith.
…

This is where I agree with you, belief through faith is not ideal, and Jesus didn’t’ come to bring another Religion IMO (as you stated yourself); But like I mentioned in my OP, everyone has to start somewhere…I just don’t believe Jesus wanted people to remain in their faith…Faith is predominately the message of Paul and Christianity…


- JC

Love is The Law and God is Love so Love is also The Spirit:

Matthew 7:12
"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets."

Galatians 5:14
"For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."

Romans 13:9-10
"For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."

1 John 4:8
"He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love."

The Old Testament does not reveal The Truth, that God is Love so to live through Love is to live through God and Love is The Fulfillment of The Law.

The closest verse in The Old Testament that reveals The Truth about Love being The Fulfillment of The Law, is this:

Proverbs 10:12
"Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins."

a reply to: arpgme

Originally posted by arpgme
Love is The Law and God is Love so Love is also The Spirit:

The written Laws given by the Law givers, were put in place as a substitute for the real thing…(until the time is ready for one to progress beyond them)…the real thing being receiving the Holy Spirit becoming born again, which is how the Laws become written on our hearts…

The Spirit brings Wisdom and Understanding, both of which lead to love…

John 14:15-17
15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth.

Originally posted by arpgme
The Old Testament does not reveal The Truth, that God is Love so to live through Love is to live through God and Love is The Fulfillment of The Law.

The closest verse in The Old Testament that reveals The Truth about Love being The Fulfillment of The Law, is this:


Proverbs 10:12
"Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins."

Psalm 111:10
10 “Receiving the Spirit” of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom;
A good understanding have all those who do His commandments.
His praise endures forever.

- JC