OP/ED: Armed and Dangerous

After robbing Windjammers, a clothing store near Toronto, Ontario, three suspects who are teenagers fled the scene and took off in a stolen van. The fourth suspect met up with authorities, and it�s alleged the young man aimed a shotgun at an officer. The officer shot him, and he was pronouced dead at St. Michael�s Hospital on New Year's Eve.


Authorities said a group of masked young men stormed into the Windjammers sporting goods store at 2129 Danforth Ave., near Woodbine, just before 6pm on New Year�s Eve armed with sawed-off shotguns. They allegedly robbed two workers and stole a large amount of clothing.

The outstanding suspects also known as teenagers are considered armed and dangerous. How could this happen? This story hit home, hard. I went to the school that this kid went to. I live in the same town where this kid lives, or lived. I do not know the victim personally, but I do know people who do.

The province�s Special Investigations Unit is currently probing the incident. The group investigates circumstances involving police and civilians, which have resulted in death, or serious injury. How is this allowed to happen? Why does a teenager who has only robbed a store get the death penalty?

In my opinion, this was not fair. The Toronto Police or any police for that matter have training. They should know the 'safe-spots' of a suspect; know where to put a bullet. This kid should not be dead.

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Key words: aimed a shotgun at the officer

You do that, you're asking for it. Period. Every copper I know would have taken the shot, and I don't blame them. the TPS gets a lot of bad press like this from people who simply don't understand the facts of policie life, especially in a huge and diverse place like Toronto.

DE

Sorry, pointing a deadly weapon at someone is not just "robbing a store."
It is an act of deadly intent. Most police officers are trained to draw and discharge their weapon only in circumstances where they are shooting to kill. I would feel a lot sorrier for that officer's family if he missed a wounding shot (which IS more difficult to make) than I do for some criminal.

Is there not training for cops?

Do they know how not to kill a person?

When someone is pointing a shotgun at you, you shoot to kill. To do otherwise would be wasting your life.
Think about it....
How would you react in the officers shoes? How would you explain being shot and crippled by a "wounded" criminal to your family?

You get what you deserve when you point a shotgun at a cop.

Uh. SHOTGUN! Think the kid was worried about where to shoot the officer so as to only wound? Not.

I normally dislike law enforcement as a rule, but they surely have the right to defend themselves. If someone pointed a shotgun at me, I'd try to kill them in any way I could, as quickly as I could.

All the shooting to disable tends to be fancy crap reserved for a sniper with a range of safety, when someone points a piece at you, its best to make sure you put them down for the count, as an injured person can still pull the trigger, a dead man cannot. It sucks that because of poor choices that a teenager met with his respective maker, but his choices put him in the situation, so its his fault and his alone IMHO.

You only shot the gun out of peoples hands in the movies. A gun fight is usually a few seconds of terror, you shot to kill the SOB before he kills you. I aint a Cop lover but I couldnt blame the cop if it was MY son. I would have killed the boy to.

[edit on 5-1-2005 by Amuk]

An officer is not trained to shoot to kill - despite the fact that the officer's actions are justifiable, it is very likely that there was a way out of the situation where the boy didn't die.

Shoot the hand? The boy loses the ability to aim and shoot at the same time. He could have permanent damage, but would not have died.

Shoot to distract, to intimidate, retreat, dodge, use means of non-lethal incapacitation when dealing with suspects known to be armed and dangerous. There's a ton of ways to get around the idea of killing someone to stop them from shooting a shotgun at you. That's the thing about 2- handed weapons. You lose a hand, you lose the ability to shoot.

If the kid had had a pistol, a hand taken would leave another to use the gun. In any case, shotguns are close range, low accuracy, double-handed weapons. Get out of range, call in backup, and disable the threat without destroying it. It should have been doable, but in a lapse of judgement or a sad set of circumstances, it wasn't done, and someone died.

Of course, I feel that the officer did as well as he could, it's just tragic that the stupid kid had to die because of it.

The only safe spot to hit a armed suspect is center of mass. A firearm is a lethal weapon. To use it for anything else is foolhardy. Never mess with an armed man and always shoot to kill.

[edit on 05/1/5 by GradyPhilpott]

Well the Kid got what he deserved, that cop prolly heard enough stories or even encountered first hand about cops being shot.. so If I was in the cops position then I would shoot too! Better him than me thats for sure..

(lets be realistic, thief goes on run.. chased by cops, points gun at the cop AND THE COP JUST PUTS DOWN HIS GUN AND HOPES FOR THE BEST because deep down a kid full of adrenalin who has committed a crime and has a weapon of deadly force and is on the run is gonna be level headed when faced with the prospect of going to jail.. yeah right...)


However this insident is sad no matter how you look at it.. the loss of a young persons life anlong with the trauma that the cop must have to deal with personally as he will have the same opinion as you Mackiller, prolly didn't want to shoot but had to.. this is not a natural action for anyone in civilised society)

R.I.P.

Originally posted by Viendin
An officer is not trained to shoot to kill - despite the fact that the officer's actions are justifiable, it is very likely that there was a way out of the situation where the boy didn't die.
Not pointing a gun at someone would be the first step. Another useful tip for the "boy" would have been to drop the gun when he was told to.

Shoot the hand? The boy loses the ability to aim and shoot at the same time. He could have permanent damage, but would not have died.

This is absurd! I would like to see you take careful aim at someones hand, who is aiming a loaded shotgun at your head, with a handgun and not get shot yourself.

Shoot to distract, to intimidate, retreat, dodge, use means of non-lethal incapacitation when dealing with suspects known to be armed and dangerous. Umm. NO!!There's a ton of ways to get around the idea of killing someone to stop them from shooting a shotgun at you. That's the thing about 2- handed weapons. You lose a hand, you lose the ability to shoot. Are you serious? Have you ever even fired a gun in your life? Do you understand how the use of a sawed off shotgun dramatically reduces the need for accuracy?


If the kid had had a pistol, a hand taken would leave another to use the gun. In any case, shotguns are close range, low accuracy, double-handed weapons. Wrong, it all depends on the load used. Get out of range, call in backup, and disable the threat without destroying it.
What would "calling in backup" acheive? Bring in the sharpshooter? Looks the same to me.
It should have been doable, but in a lapse of judgement or a sad set of circumstances, it wasn't done, and someone died.
The choice was made by the "boy" who decided that pointing a firearm at someone in exchange for money was a good idea.
Of course, I feel that the officer did as well as he could, it's just tragic that the stupid kid had to die because of it.

1. The kid, along with the rest of his gang who are currently on the loose, decided before the robbery to use guns.

2. The kid, and the rest of his gang, on purpose got guns. They purchased them and/or stole them. This is before the robbery.

3. The cops arrive. The kid had a choice. He could have given up. What did he do? He FLED. Now the cops are after him.

4. The kid could have thrown down his gun while fleeing. (They were in a stolen van.). The kid kept his gun.

5. The cops catch up to this kid. He is holding the gun. He STILL could've dropped it. But he doesn't. He on purpose moved the gun, and AIMED it. What comes after aiming? C'mon, what comes next after aiming?

This kid did it ALL to himself. It's all 100% his fault he's DEAD..
End of story. End of discussion. End of all talk about this.

In reply to this I am completely ashamed seeing as the guy who got shot and died was one of my very very good friends and one i considered closer than that. No one deserves to died and no one has the right to take anyones life except for God. What he did might have been foolish, but who said that the cops are telling the truth. The article said he "allegedly" pointed a shot gun at the cop. Alot of cops know him and in order to save their own butt they probably said that. So unless you know the whole story or know this guy shut up. Thanks and have a nice day.

Originally posted by 45Member45
So unless you know the whole story or know this guy shut up. Thanks and have a nice day.

And just who are you to come on this board and tell ANYONE to shut up?

If your little buddy hadn't been playing Gangster he wouldn't be dead. Who forced him to rob a place and wave a shotgun around? You play you pay. In an armed confrontation I don't blame the police for shooting first.

[edit on 25-1-2005 by Amuk]

Originally posted by 45Member45
In reply to this I am completely ashamed seeing as the guy who got shot and died was one of my very very good friends and one i considered closer than that. No one deserves to died and no one has the right to take anyones life except for God. What he did might have been foolish, but who said that the cops are telling the truth. The article said he "allegedly" pointed a shot gun at the cop. Alot of cops know him and in order to save their own butt they probably said that. So unless you know the whole story or know this guy shut up. Thanks and have a nice day.

Armed robbery with a shotgun involves intent to kill. I'm glad this punk got what he deserved which i consider bad karma catching up to him. If he wanted to live, perhaps he should have got himself a job, go to school and choose a better group of friends to run with. Perhaps he should have taken a more peaceful exsistance on Earth instead of choosing the thug-life playing "god" with sawed off shotguns.

What do you want people to say dude?
too bad the cop didn't die instead?
too bad someone tried to stop the robbery?
too bad?

yeah dude... he wanted to commit a crime...
and armed robbery ain't shoplifting... it is serious... anyone sticks a gun in my face gets shot... that simple...
the rest of his (and your) buddies are lucky the owner of the store didn't blow them all away... he would have had full legal right to do so...

and you have a valid point... no one should have the right to kill someone else...in a perfect world...
so the only thing you can do in this life is don't give people a valid reason to kill you... and if they try without a valid reason... then hopefully you get them first... law of god first...then the law of self preservation when that fails...

I was held up at gunpoint years ago, when I worked at a gas station. From the point of view of the victim, having a gun pointed at you and wondering if this is the day you die is not something I would wish on anyone.

I'm very sorry you lost your friend, but he made a choice, albiet a very bad one. But when I was being robbed, if it had come down to me or him getting killed, I would have chosen him. And I was told by the RCMP that if I had shot him, and he landed inside the store, I would not be subject to any lawsuit. Good to know.

Cops are trained to aim for the centre mass and not to stop firing until the clip is empty. As Amuk said fancy shooting only happens in the movies.

My best buddy is a cop and was reprimanded by his superiors for NOT shooting someone dead. It was outside of a skid bar after closing. He was investigating a complaint when someone approached him laughing with a gun in his hand in a shooters stance. My buddy is 6'4 and a martial artist. He slammed the guy into the car, twisted his arm around and the weapon (a novelty cigarette lighter) fell to the ground.

No citations for him, only a reprimand for not blowing the idiot away. And this was in Canada!! (specifically Waterloo MacKiller)

I'd have put 13 40cal rounds into his chest and not lost a moments sleep.