Ban gun free zones to reduce mass shootings

a reply to: Vroomfondel

My point is obvious. A business saying they don't want guns on their property was easily over ruled by the license that granted me permission to carry the firearm. Nowhere on that license does it say I need your permission.

My inalienable right trumps your preference.

Both the right to bear arms (2nd amendment) and private property (5th amendment) are equal in it's application and right to practice. That's not a preference. That's a right.

Your right to bear arms does not trump someone else's 5th amendment right. As a private property owner, one has the right to ask people not to bear arms. If you don't like it, you have the right not to enter their private property.

It's fairly simple. Your rights end where someone else's right begins.

originally posted by: Vroomfondel
Nowhere on that license does it say I need your permission.

There's one catch, though. Your right to even be on private property exists only insofar as you have permission from the property owner, whether that permission is explicit or implicit. A private property owner generally can set his/her conditions for continuance of your permission to remain on their property. If you violate those conditions, they're well within their rights to ask you to leave. If you don't, you can be charged with trespassing.

You have no right to tell a private citizen (or privately held business) that you can carry on their property, because you have no inherent right to be on their property unless they allow it to begin with.

originally posted by: vor78

originally posted by: Vroomfondel
Nowhere on that license does it say I need your permission.

There's one catch, though. Your right to even be on private property exists only insofar as you have permission from the property owner, whether that permission is explicit or implicit. A private property owner generally can set his/her conditions for continuance of your permission to remain on their property. If you violate those conditions, they're well within their rights to ask you to leave. If you don't, you can be charged with trespassing.

You have no right to tell a private citizen (or privately held business) that you can carry on their property, because you have no inherent right to be on their property unless they allow it to begin with.

I understand what you are saying, but I am sorry, you are wrong.

Private property and a privately owned business with public access are two different things. I have a license and an inalienable right to possess, and via the license, carry firearms. That license is not limited to your discretion. That has been proven time and again in my own experience while carrying firearms.

"We reserve the right to refuse service" has limitations. If we are talking about a private club, or residence, that is a different story. But if we talking about a business that is open to the general public your logic does not apply. I have proven that myself on numerous occasions by defending my right to conceal carry. Most of the time the business owner doesn't even know its there. That is the idea behind 'conceal' carry as opposed to open carry. You can put up all the signs you want but it means nothing if it is not legislated.

I went to a club where a friend of mine was playing one night. An off duty cop was working the door as security. He saw the heel of my gun above my belt and said, "You can't bring that in here." I informed him that I had a license that said otherwise. He asked me if I would put it in my car. I said no, I didn't want someone to break into my car and run off with my gun and reminded him that my license did not say I needed his permission. I showed him my license and that was the end of it. He made a point to tell me that he was going to 'keep on eye on me'. I didn't mind at all. He knew it wasn't illegal and that was the end of it.

Putting up a sign that says 'No guns' wont stop a legal conceal carry any more than it will stop a criminal planning on robbing you. There has to be legislation behind it or it is meaningless.

a reply to: Vroomfondel

What happens to gun owners who carry in restaurants that have banned weapons?

From a legal point of view, the choice to ban weapons on private property is one that only deals with the property rights of individual owners. Since restaurateurs cannot nullify the Second Amendment through a weapons ban, their only recourse is one of criminal trespass.

In simple English, someone who carries a gun into a restaurant in spite of a known ban can be charged with trespass. In most states, trespass laws simply indicate that property owners have the right to distinguish what behaviors will, and will not, be allowed on their property.

If a restaurant owner were to be notified of a patron carrying a gun, that patron could be asked to leave or disarm. If he did not comply, the restaurant owner could call the local police, have the patron arrested, and press trespass charges.

Link

originally posted by: Vroomfondel

originally posted by: vor78

originally posted by: Vroomfondel
Nowhere on that license does it say I need your permission.

There's one catch, though. Your right to even be on private property exists only insofar as you have permission from the property owner, whether that permission is explicit or implicit. A private property owner generally can set his/her conditions for continuance of your permission to remain on their property. If you violate those conditions, they're well within their rights to ask you to leave. If you don't, you can be charged with trespassing.

You have no right to tell a private citizen (or privately held business) that you can carry on their property, because you have no inherent right to be on their property unless they allow it to begin with.

I understand what you are saying, but I am sorry, you are wrong.

Private property and a privately owned business with public access are two different things. I have a license and an inalienable right to possess, and via the license, carry firearms. That license is not limited to your discretion. That has been proven time and again in my own experience while carrying firearms.

"We reserve the right to refuse service" has limitations. If we are talking about a private club, or residence, that is a different story. But if we talking about a business that is open to the general public your logic does not apply. I have proven that myself on numerous occasions by defending my right to conceal carry. Most of the time the business owner doesn't even know its there. That is the idea behind 'conceal' carry as opposed to open carry. You can put up all the signs you want but it means nothing if it is not legislated.

I went to a club where a friend of mine was playing one night. An off duty cop was working the door as security. He saw the heel of my gun above my belt and said, "You can't bring that in here." I informed him that I had a license that said otherwise. He asked me if I would put it in my car. I said no, I didn't want someone to break into my car and run off with my gun and reminded him that my license did not say I needed his permission. I showed him my license and that was the end of it. He made a point to tell me that he was going to 'keep on eye on me'. I didn't mind at all. He knew it wasn't illegal and that was the end of it.

Putting up a sign that says 'No guns' wont stop a legal conceal carry any more than it will stop a criminal planning on robbing you. There has to be legislation behind it or it is meaningless.

If you were notified you couldn't carry in the gun and you did that officer could have called his buddies to pick you up for trespass. Even though you appeared to be a smart ass to the guy he cut you a break. So next time you go to that club might want to thank him that he decided not to create a scene.

I have been asked to remove my firearm in different locations and I went and put it in my car and complied with the owners request. Being an ass proves nothing other then you lack manners.

originally posted by: dragonridr

originally posted by: Vroomfondel

originally posted by: vor78

originally posted by: Vroomfondel
Nowhere on that license does it say I need your permission.

There's one catch, though. Your right to even be on private property exists only insofar as you have permission from the property owner, whether that permission is explicit or implicit. A private property owner generally can set his/her conditions for continuance of your permission to remain on their property. If you violate those conditions, they're well within their rights to ask you to leave. If you don't, you can be charged with trespassing.

You have no right to tell a private citizen (or privately held business) that you can carry on their property, because you have no inherent right to be on their property unless they allow it to begin with.

I understand what you are saying, but I am sorry, you are wrong.

Private property and a privately owned business with public access are two different things. I have a license and an inalienable right to possess, and via the license, carry firearms. That license is not limited to your discretion. That has been proven time and again in my own experience while carrying firearms.

"We reserve the right to refuse service" has limitations. If we are talking about a private club, or residence, that is a different story. But if we talking about a business that is open to the general public your logic does not apply. I have proven that myself on numerous occasions by defending my right to conceal carry. Most of the time the business owner doesn't even know its there. That is the idea behind 'conceal' carry as opposed to open carry. You can put up all the signs you want but it means nothing if it is not legislated.

I went to a club where a friend of mine was playing one night. An off duty cop was working the door as security. He saw the heel of my gun above my belt and said, "You can't bring that in here." I informed him that I had a license that said otherwise. He asked me if I would put it in my car. I said no, I didn't want someone to break into my car and run off with my gun and reminded him that my license did not say I needed his permission. I showed him my license and that was the end of it. He made a point to tell me that he was going to 'keep on eye on me'. I didn't mind at all. He knew it wasn't illegal and that was the end of it.

Putting up a sign that says 'No guns' wont stop a legal conceal carry any more than it will stop a criminal planning on robbing you. There has to be legislation behind it or it is meaningless.

If you were notified you couldn't carry in the gun and you did that officer could have called his buddies to pick you up for trespass. Even though you appeared to be a smart ass to the guy he cut you a break. So next time you go to that club might want to thank him that he decided not to create a scene.

I have been asked to remove my firearm in different locations and I went and put it in my car and complied with the owners request. Being an ass proves nothing other then you lack manners.

There is no need to resort to name calling and insult. If that is the best you have...

The officer didn't cut me a break. What I did was not illegal. Period. If it was, I would have been arrested for doing it. Now you are suggesting that I was an ass and have bad manners, and, the police officer was derelict in his duties.

a reply to: introvert

I would avoid using restaurants.com for legal advice....

Your link states clearly that it varies from state to state and I believe I eluded to that. I am sure there are states that allow a business owner to impose restrictions and there are states that do not. Just as there are states that allow conceal carry and states that do not.

As I said earlier, I have had door security, off duty police, tell me they didn't want me to carry but bowed to the fact that doing so was not illegal. In that state owners of bars or restaurants can put up signs if they want but the signs have no legal weight. I knew that and so did the officer.

Note: I checked with a friend who owns several night clubs. He told me that in Illinois he does have the right to ban weapons with proper signage. However, he also stated that that is not always the case. He can ask someone to leave if he wants to as the property owner but would only do so if he had reason to believe there would be a problem. He prefers to ask people to check their weapons with management rather than carry them and as such does not refuse service to people unless absolutely necessary. But that is Illinois, which has never been particularly friendly to gun owners.

It also makes a big difference what type of business we are talking about. A former employer banned all weapons but they also have all kinds of hazardous chemicals and equipment and have restrictions on just about everything including the clothes you wear.

I intend to keep my right to keep and bear arms, including conceal carry. That means I will not willfully break the law, especially where firearms are concerned. You can believe whatever you want, but I will continue to conduct myself lawfully and safely as I always have. If it is illegal, I will respect it whether I agree with it or not. That is what being a law abiding citizen is.

Hmmm, just for the record, I was a law breaker for many, many years where concealed carry is concerned. For many years prior to KY enacting a concealed carry permit process, I carried. I did it because several of my cop friends found out that I was working at the night shift at the local hospital and told me to that I should always have a gun in my pocket when I went out to the parking lot at night. Three women had been raped there and two more had escaped the attacker. I did what they suggested and never left the place without my hand on my gun. (About six months after I began that job, a nurse at a nearby hospital took care of the rapist with the gun she was carrying in her pocket. He is a dead rapist now. She happened to be the wife a a police officer and nobody said one single word about how she was illegally carrying a firearm.)

Later on, when I began working for the university, (a strictly "Gun-free Zone by law) I was working off-campus, a very rural setting but still owned by the University. I always had my gun in my car. Yes, it was illegal at that point but I was also responsible for the safety of my students and while I wasn't specifically afraid of bad guys coming to raid our field school headquarters, there were deadly snakes in the area and constant reports of rabid wild animals. My boss knew I had a weapon and approved. "Screw the law." was his attitude as was mine because human safety comes before some folks' irrational fear of guns.

Thankfully, a few years ago the court system in Kentucky ruled that having a weapon in your car on a college campus is not illegal so I'm no longer a criminal in that sense. I'm only a criminal now because I refuse to purchase health insurance.

a reply to: diggindirt

I have carried for years and some of those years I was not licensed. I had to defend myself from animals mostly. Snakes, Coyotes, wild dogs. It is my right as a living being to defend my life. Any law that says different is complete BS in my view. More than once a group of people crossed the street when I was walking alone so as to be on the same side of the road to act intimidating to me or perhaps to group mug me. I reached my hand into my shoulder pack and moved it in front of me while staring them down. Every time the group moved back to the other side of the street giving me a wide berth. I did not reveal but it was clear I was gripping a concealed weapon. Predators can detect prey. If you are not prey then predators usually keep their distance unless they are especially hungry.

a reply to: introvert

Where is your lawn sign stating it is a gun free home?

a reply to: introvert

If someone is concealing properly they will not be detected. If they are flaunting they should be barred entry in my opinion. No one wants to be made to feel unsafe or uncomfortable by some ahole brandishing a firearm.

a reply to: machineintelligence

Really? You used a gun to defend yourself from snakes? Wild Dogs and Coyotes, sure, but us Australians seem to manage our snake problem without a bajillion guns.

I'd be fine with more people carrying, if there were proper background checks and the culture was correct. If someone's a wife beater and spent five years in jail for attempted murder, they really don't have any business owning a gun. No, I don't give a flying f*** about the second amendment in that case. Come back to me once you've got the patriot act repealed and you can stop being hypocritical.

Kids need to be taught to respect guns, the correct safety procedures, so on and so forth. I'm fine with someone like you, but at least half of the people I went to school with I'd be utterly terrified of being allowed to have a gun. Not for my own sake, but they'd probably end up shooting some old lady by accident.

a reply to: Eilasvaleleyn
We have two deadly vipers that call our area home, copperheads and a few varieties of rattlesnake. A shotgun is very efficient to dispatch one of the legless devils. We don't tolerate them in the house-yard.

My sister was trapped in an apple tree for a time once when she climbed up to get a few apples. When she started down there was a rattlesnake sunning himself at the base of the tree. She froze for quite some time but finally figured out that she might be able to drive it away by pelting it with apples. She ran for a gun but it escaped. Going to the orchard was a real adventure for the rest of that season!

a reply to: diggindirt

I was headed back to the house from the back pasture after fixing some fence and a rattler started menacing me once. I was 10 at the time. I pulled my Ruger Bearcat 22 pistol, and fired a load of rat shot at him separating his head from his body. I was glad I had that pistol strapped on my hip that day for sure. I was thankful that my dad had started training me since I was 6 years old and I could draw and dispatch a snake threatening me from 20 feet in half a second.

I'm not saying that guns aren't useful for killing snakes. After all, killing is what guns do best. What I'm saying is that they aren't necessary.

At least your dad seemingly trained you properly. Judging by the fact you didn't shoot yourself, at least.

a reply to: Eilasvaleleyn

So how does a 10 year old deal with a rattle snake out in a pasture without a gun where you live? My gun sure seemed like the best tool for that job at the time for me I can tell you.

a reply to: machineintelligence

Ten year olds aren't out in pastures by themselves where I live.

originally posted by: Eilasvaleleyn
a reply to: machineintelligence

Ten year olds aren't out in pastures by themselves where I live.

Poor things. I feel sorry for kids who don't have the freedom that I and my siblings and friends enjoyed in our youth. We roamed the entire neighborhood freely, woods, pastures, creeks and ponds.

a reply to: machineintelligence

That little Bearcat is sweet. That was the first gun I ever actually owned. Still love 'em because they fit my hand so well and will do just about anything I need to do on the rounds of the farm.
I was trained from age 7 to handle a gun. When my Dad's big family got together we always spent some time shooting tin cans. The women always beat the men!

a reply to: diggindirt

It's not that, it's just that kids here realise that being out in snake territory by yourself is a really f***ing stupid idea. There are snakes here with bites that can be painless. Guess what that means? You're cheerfully walking home then suddenly you're vomiting. Then you die from internal bleeding. Oh, if only you had a gun to save yourself from that bite you never knew you got. Guns don't work here because half the time someone gets bitten, it's before they even realise a snake is there to begin with.

We prefer to err on the side of prevention methods rather than "ah, screw it, you know what will fix the problem? More guns."

We view long grass here in Aus the same way they view it in the world of Pokemon.