Russia says NATO accepts reponsibility for downing of Russian Su-24 jet

originally posted by: benwyatt

this makes the headline a lie.

How so? It clearly says Russias own minister considers NATO just as guilty as Turkey?

Nice Signature.

The headline is accurate, the Minister is twisting the truth. NATO does not accept responsibility for the downing of the jet. The headline is crafted in such a way that it gives the impression that someone from NATO said: "Okay, we accept responsibility." This will register in the minds of people inclined to hate NATO as: "NATO confesses it shot down Russian jet." Watch, you will see certain members say exactly that: "But nato admitted they ordered turky to shoot at russian jets!"

originally posted by: nwtrucker
a reply to: Reverbs

I ask again how long would those in their 'right minds' allow incursion into their airspace....parallel, not moving inward...before shooting it down?

Answer the damn question, please?

Listen..

I posted over 1,000 incursions into Greek airspace by Turks... No one shot down..

Let me up your anti..

From 2 days ago talking about the same conflict in Syria.


theaviationist.com...

“Russian pilots occasionally cross into Israeli airspace, but due to excellent defense coordination that began with Netanyahu’s meeting with Putin in which limits were set, the Israel Defense Forces and the Russian military agreed on security arrangements,” said General (res.) Amos Gilad, head of the Israeli Defense Ministry’s political-security division, as reported to Israeli media outlets.

See even the Israelis let the Russians do it for more than 17 seconds..

Putin said Stabbed in the back, and while I don't listen to either side on exact details as they both (Russian/Turk) have reason to lie... I see why he said it..

You guys are being used as tools if you can't see what's happening here.

And as I pointed out the Turks are placing themselves in a situation NATO won't support them.

a reply to: Reverbs

read what the surviving pilot said

end of story

it would be suicide mission to continue flying in the airspace..

Like Isis would fly a fighter jet .. This hasn't happened since 1950

By "Russia's man", I meant Grushko, and my comment does not depend on your nationality. NATO's man says "I don't know" and Russia's man responds "That means NATO is supporting Turkey". You saw this exchange as a reason for thinking the U.S. was looking for war. But to my mind, Grushko's deliberately tendentious interpretation offers more reason to think that Russia is looking for a fight.

a reply to: DISRAELI

Yes, I see where your coming from. I agree that Russia wants it as well. My statement was meant to question if, with all the unrest here in the states, that the US will play "Passive-Aggressive" like with Japan in the 30's during another politically unstable time, The Great Depression.

It wasn't a slight on your intelligence or anyone else's intelligence. It was intended to be a slight on Grushko's honesty. He knows very well that "I don't know" is trying to sit on the fence, so there is something disingenuous about his claim that it means "NATO is backing Turkey". Since you are not Russian, there is no reason why a slight on Grushko's honesty should bother you. As you will see from elsewhere on this thread, I agree that Ergo is trying to pick a fight, and that Turkey is at least half to blame for the situation. But Grushko's comments do not help.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. Yes, i agree that the Russian politician is playing chess and would drop dead from a heart attack if he was ordered to tell the truth. But how do we know we aren't seeing turkey get used as a pawn, just as Poland did in 1939? Alot of people wouldn't have believed the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact was possible until it happened.

originally posted by: nwtrucker

originally posted by: Whereismypassword

originally posted by: nwtrucker
a reply to: Reverbs

I ask again how long would those in their 'right minds' allow incursion into their airspace....parallel, not moving inward...before shooting it down?

Answer the damn question, please?

No one in their right mind would shoot down an aircraft from a country friendly to them that was not a threat to them

You understand that,or you still looking for reds under your bed from years of being indoctrinated by your media

Very good. They wouldn't would they? Correct! But they did! Therefore, Turkey is nuts. The Russians aren't actually 'friends'- when compared with NATO as 'friends'. There's more going on than meets the eye, here. Both are underhanded, agenda driven nations....as is every single other nation in this mess.

A simple rule. Stay out of the airspace of nations that can do something about it.

Your right turkey is nuts and senior NATO partners should have told them to apologise and behave if they want to remain in that organisation

Look at how many Russians take vacations there! Their also trading partners,it was the wrong reaction no matter even if Russia was in the wrong you don't shoot down their plane unless it posed a potential threat and immediate reactions were the only way to eliminate that threat

I honestly think it's the European members in charge of NATO at the moment who seem to want a war with Russia

Look at Georgia,chasing Nato membership to the extent it sent its own small group of soldiers into our sand pits to play during our war on terror in Afghanistan and Iraq

Then they decide to start killing civilians in the east of their country with their army shelling towns

Why on earth would any sane person do that unless someone is whispering in their ear to do so

I personally think that the UK and USA should reevaluate the command structure in NATO because at the moment there are pathological war hawks in there from insignificant Countries who don't deserve their positions

The headline is crafted in such a way that it gives the impression that someone from NATO said: "Okay, we accept responsibility." This will register in the minds of people inclined to hate NATO as: "NATO confesses it shot down Russian jet." Watch, you will see certain members say exactly that: "But nato admitted they ordered turky to shoot at russian jets!"

a reply to: DJW001

No doubt. Sheep are rather Sheep=like. I guess I have gotten better at looking through propaganda. Or maybe it went over my head that people would look at it like that?

Scary.

a reply to: Reverbs

What cannot be denied is that Turkey fired the first shot in this potential act of war.

a reply to: Reverbs

The Greeks and the Turks have had a pissing contest over Cyprus for well over 50 years. Different issue.

Somehow that becomes a moral equivalent? Sounds more like spin, to me.

Try sticking to the Turk-Russian issue.

Still haven't answered the question. how long is long enough to shoot down an incursion into airspace?

17 seconds aren't enough, says you? (In your 'right mind'?) The how long is enough????

a reply to: Whereismypassword

So with all the Russian acts, you give them a pass? Really?

Crimea, Georgia, the Ukraine, opening old arctic bases. Now Syria? Really?

The Turks end up in a squeeze play between Syria and Iran? They are ALL nuts.....

P.S. Perhaps shooting down an invading fighter is the LEAST nutty act in this whole mess....

a reply to: DJW001

give me a reason
Who in the right mind would send two pilots and $25 million dollar jet into this .. and at the end of the day if putin was crazy enough to order this
the pilot would have to be a psycho to keep going despite numerous warnings
it looks more like someone was trying to show who is the boss if anything
and still this is between turkey and russia ..

Nwtrucker

question goes to you too
so you just justified murder

the jet did nothing but crossed an airspace
You would shoot a trespasser ? you must have been in real f**** danger buddy

originally posted by: Layaly
a reply to: DJW001

give me a reason
Who in the right mind would send two pilots and $25 million dollar jet into this .. and at the end of the day if putin was crazy enough to order this
the pilot would have to be a psycho to keep going despite numerous warnings
it looks more like someone was trying to show who is the boss if anything
and still this is between turkey and russia ..

Exactly. The pilots were probably ordered not to tune in to the emergency frequency so that they would not know they were in danger. Putin and Erdogan have been playing a game of chicken.

originally posted by: Salander
a reply to: Reverbs

What cannot be denied is that Turkey fired the first shot in this potential act of war.

What cannot be denied is that Russia did not take Erdogan's threat seriously. Since Russia is afraid to retaliate, Turkey has already won the war.

originally posted by: nwtrucker
a reply to: Reverbs

The Greeks and the Turks have had a pissing contest over Cyprus for well over 50 years. Different issue.

Somehow that becomes a moral equivalent? Sounds more like spin, to me.

Try sticking to the Turk-Russian issue.

Still haven't answered the question. how long is long enough to shoot down an incursion into airspace?

17 seconds aren't enough, says you? (In your 'right mind'?) The how long is enough????

try reading my last post.

Even the hyper and very pro US Israelis don't shoot down Russian jets in their airspace for longer than 17 seconds.

You are being willfully ignorant to think this is normal.

What this is.. Turkey telling Russia we want Assad out and stop bombing the non ISIS guys (close to our border... the guys we are funding)..

I don't know why you have to make this about posts on ATS. The information is all out there.

It has nothing to do with me Turkey decided to do this. How it plays out will be Turkey under the bus if they continue.
ISIS started as a good PR thing as an excuse for US bombs in Syria/Iraq. It has now turned into good PR for Russian bombs in Syria.

Basically now anyone who stops bombing of ISIS is an idiot.

Oh and I should maybe expand I was in the Army for Air Defense.

originally posted by: nwtrucker
a reply to: Whereismypassword

So with all the Russian acts, you give them a pass? Really?

Crimea, Georgia, the Ukraine, opening old arctic bases. Now Syria? Really?

The Turks end up in a squeeze play between Syria and Iran? They are ALL nuts.....

P.S. Perhaps shooting down an invading fighter is the LEAST nutty act in this whole mess....

if you looked at a map you would not see an "invading fighter"

You would see someone skimming over a peninsula to get to other parts of Syria more quickly.. IE flying parallel to the border. It's crazy obvious the Russians are bombing rebel groups/terrorists in Syria and have no need to bomb Turkey.. IT's absurd.

Check into how many people invade US airspace.

I don't trust Russia or USA either.. Look into what Germany and France do in the coming weeks.

a reply to: Reverbs

This is REALLY simple...Stay out of Turkish airspace.

Measuring the act against any other isn't germane and muddies a simple message.

Stay out of my airspace. Stop the comparisons. Their nation, their airspace, their choice.

originally posted by: nwtrucker
a reply to: Reverbs

This is REALLY simple...Stay out of Turkish airspace.

Measuring the act against any other isn't germane and muddies a simple message.

Stay out of my airspace. Stop the comparisons. Their nation, their airspace, their choice.

that's really not how it works.

I was patriot missile fire control in the Army.

Meanwhile Israel lets Russia incur a few miles.. Same time same conflict.


Turkey was wrong to do it. The whole world knows it


Russia bombing in terrorism safe zone.. Like Americans not being able to bomb Cambodia in Vietnam conflict.

originally posted by: Reverbs

originally posted by: nwtrucker
a reply to: Reverbs

This is REALLY simple...Stay out of Turkish airspace.

Measuring the act against any other isn't germane and muddies a simple message.

Stay out of my airspace. Stop the comparisons. Their nation, their airspace, their choice.

that's really not how it works.


Meanwhile Israel lets Russia incur a few miles..

That's how Turkey says it works. Not YOU.

You 'sound' like a REMF, not front line....


How things 'work' are 'changing' by the minute...situational awareness, my man....

a reply to: nwtrucker

so Russia has the right to shoot down each plane that violates their airspace from now one !!
Fair enough

no person with the right Mind would do that ..
only a psycho fanatic mind such as yours can ..

turkey has sanctions is fair enough price to pay .. and they are already sorry

a reply to: nwtrucker

Patriot Missile Fire Control. 14E

As in Anti Air defense.

Compare it to S-300 missile system by Russia.

U.S.-Turkey deal aims to create de facto ‘safe zone’ in northwest Syria
www.washingtonpost.com... y.html

You are under informed about what is going on


Turkey is mad that all their terrorists are getting blown up.
And I will watch them place themselves in bad territory that even NATO won't defend.

Israel isn't shooting at Russian jets that go into their territory as I already have shown. Think about this..

a reply to: DJW001

Exactly. The pilots were probably ordered not to tune in to the emergency frequency so that they would not know they were in danger. Putin and Erdogan have been playing a game of chicken.

I like the way you think. I would say wait for PUBLICIZED Turkish Army border incursions into syria and then there is NO turning back.