For anyone who thinks non-believers are going to hell

First, let me say that I am agnostic (or atheist - I simply prefer the term agnostic and would not identify myself as "atheist"). What I explain here is my personal opinion - I do not speak for any other non-believers.

Now that that's out of the way, let's get to the heart of this thread. I don't care if you think I'm going to hell - it does not affect my lack of belief. Not believing in God is not the same as rejecting God. Many of you seem to think that non-believers simply choose to deny God's existence. This is not true. Belief is not a choice. You cannot actually choose or not choose to believe in something. If I had the choice, I would certainly believe in God, a world to come, and eternal happiness after death. Unfortunately, beliefs come from being convinced and "God exists because God told us so in the Bible" does not convince me. Nor do the many years I spent studying the Bible as part of coursework in Theology - which just showed me that the Bible was composed by several authors over a period stretching over thousands of years, written in various languages, etc. One would think a God-inspired book of under 2,000 pages could have been written by one person.

If you believe in God, fine - though, how can you, unless you suppress logic and delude yourself? If I were to take the Bible as true, I would have to consider The Odyssey as scripture, more or less.

For those who think atheism/agnosticism is a belief - no, it is not. I do believe things - for example, I believe that if i sit around on ATS and do nothing all day, I will not make much money. I am convinced of this, because I have never been paid for doing nothing. So, if you want us to believe in God, stop threatening us with a hellfire we couldn't care less about. Try actually convincing us. The sad thing is, I doubt you could - since many of us know far more about your Bible than you ever will.

Hint: If you are not familiar with the term Q source, you could not begin to start a debate with me on Christian theology. So, here's a challenge - convince me that God is real and I will become a believer. If you cannot argue with decency, then act with the humility demanded by your religion and refrain from posting on this thread.

I know there are plenty of believers who are going to hell as well as non believers.

You claim lots of thing but dont seem to know as much as you claim.

You are right, plenty of Christians dont know much about their beliefs, though I dont think you know any more than them

Maybe I am wrong and you are as smart and as clever as you claim, doubt it though.

Jesus isnt theology, Jesus is love

You dont get it, not a drop

a reply to: scorpio84

How would anyone convince you God exists when no one can prove God to another person?

I really don't see the point of this thread

perhaps its just to attract pious Christians into debate?

Btw I've talked to a reverend that had no idea what Q was about... he thought it had to do with Qumran, so the average Christian probably wouldn't have a clue what that is

a reply to: Akragon

This poster is all over on this issue.
Imo, at the point of trolling.

a reply to: scorpio84

The problem lies in "convincing you"....because I'm not here to convince you...no one is. Being right with God isn't about what you know or believe...it's all a matter of the heart...and no amount of "convincing" will change your heart(see the scribes and pharisees)


" I desire mercy, and not sacrifice....."
A2D

originally posted by: Agree2Disagree
a reply to: scorpio84

The problem lies in "convincing you"....because I'm not here to convince you...no one is. Being right with God isn't about what you know or believe...it's all a matter of the heart...and no amount of "convincing" will change your heart(see the scribes and pharisees)


" I desire mercy, and not sacrifice....."
A2D

If God did not require sacrifice then why this:

The Law of Burnt Offerings (Leviticus 1:1-17)?

All through the OT the Hebrews are instructed to sacrifice animals. The whole point of the altar and the Holy of Holies was for this purpose. The High Priest's role was all about animal sacrifice. Your quote is just a play on that so the believers, the flock, would be even more influenced that their God has moral superiority in His mercy and that the sacrifice ritual is empty without the moral compass of belief.

The Christians have their human sacrifice and that disgusts me. It is pagan, no doubt. I do not want a man to be sacrificed for my sins as some scapegoat. My sins certainly are not enough to warrant the horrific death of a man.

The Hebrews when in Babylon started to write their stories given the idea after exposure to the Greek and Persian literature. The OT is the Hebrew Iliad and Odyssey, full of myth mixed with history. There is even preserved the original oral poetry of the tradition in some parts and it can easily be spotted. All the tell tale signs are there of mythical talking animals, miracles in nature, etc.

The Christians were also highly influenced by the Greeks and Persians. I am quite positive that Christianity is a blend of Hebrew and pagan worship; human sacrifice like the man god Tammuz, Adonis, the Wicker Man, etc. It is clearly obvious to my anthropological little eye. The Greek and Persian religions were all about human sacrifice. Christianity is a very clever, and for then, modernist blend.

The Bible is a precious human historical literary treasure, no doubt, but only in the same way as Iliad, Odyssey, Aeneid, Epic of Gilgamesh. We know how much the Hebrews borrowed their stories from Persia and Mesopotamia. Quite right, too, as the Hebrews probably came out ofAssyria just like the Bible describes in the story of Abraham coming from Ur. It is part of their history, myth and culture.

a reply to: scorpio84

You want us to do for you what only Jesus can? That's asking a lot there pal.

And picking out some obscure references, as well as Google searching 'hard to know' facts about Christianity wont help your cause either. I've read the Bible, studied it too, and I didn't know what the Q source is.

a reply to: scorpio84

It is Simple,

Do you think God would show you his face?
right, if non believers actually had 100% proof god existed they would worship him.
That is why god doesn't want you, Non-believers to worship him because you have to believe it first!

originally posted by: Joneselius
a reply to: scorpio84

You want us to do for you what only Jesus can? That's asking a lot there pal.

And picking out some obscure references, as well as Google searching 'hard to know' facts about Christianity wont help your cause either. I've read the Bible, studied it too, and I didn't know what the Q source is.

Well you darned well should if you did all that studying. Go and find out immediately. I have studied the Bible, too, in great depth and also the Greek myths. I know what the Q source is. How can you accuse the OP of not being studious if you know less than he does about the subject? That is ridiculous and like putting your pants on the wrong way round in the morning.

a reply to: Revolution9

Something like that isn't taught in "Christian" circles... not even In seminary apparently

There is no Hell.
An adult naughty step made up by men to keep others in line.

Someone had to be there to press the big red button. The one that stated "do not touch" . The one that ignited the great expansion and brought this universe and this miserable world into existence.And God said "Let there be light..."

a reply to: scorpio84

I doubt there will be any non-believers in hell only believers who have sinned, they dreamed up hell in the first place.

a reply to: Revolution9

I think it's appropriate to inform you that I'm speaking as an agnostic. However, I'm well aware of the Hebrews and their sacrifices...just as I'm also well aware of everything you just regurgitated. I've heard it a million times over...and it wont be surprising if I hear it another million in my lifetime. That being said, repetition does not a truth make...

Now...

If God did not require sacrifice then why this:

The Law of Burnt Offerings (Leviticus 1:1-17)?

Easy. See Hebrews 10....

It's a shadowing thing mostly. You know, like when Moses was asked to sacrifice his son, but God didn't actually want him to sacrifice his son. It's a heart thing...I don't really know how else to explain it other than with the words of the author of Hebrews....


A2D

I now believe in god. There is no way my natural life was meant to be such a hell. It has to be god.

For those who don't know, Q Source is basically a theory that says that there is a lost writing with all of Jesus' Sayings on it and that The Gospels borrowed many of Jesus' Sayings and Metaphors from this Q Source.

Christians protected The 4 Gospels even through persecution, and Jesus did not write his own Gospel (which means he just spoke his sayings to his disciples - not written), so it's more reasonable to believe that The Sayings of Jesus was given through an oral tradition rather than a lost Q Source.

When you say prove God, which god are you talking about?

The Catholic God taught by Paul's Epistles in the Bible?

The Jewish God taught by The Old Testament writings in The Bible?

God as taught by The Book of Revelation?

God and Chochmah/Wisdom* as taught in Proverbs?

* Chochmah, The Spirit of Wisdom is called "Sophia" by Gnostic Christians

God as taught by Jesus in The Sermon on The Mount?

There are many different versions of God taught in the Bible. The Bible is not a book but a canon of many books and letters by many different people with different opinions over a long period of time.

(Hint: For a follower of Christ, The Word of Christ is most important and many things said by other people whether by Paul, Peter, The Writers of The Old Testament, may not be compatible.)

-----

I believe that God is Love and therefore to Know Love is to Know God, and if it isn't Love then it isn't God.

King James Version

"Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God." - Matthew 5:9

"Beloved let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love." - 1 John 4:7-8

Only through the water and the spirit
Can you be saved

If you have come to Jesus
It is because his father had sent you
As he will rise you up in the last days

Now you know why you have not found Jesus

As for proof of God all I have to offer you is his word
His word is prophecy
Revelations

If it comes true will you then believe
But by then it maybe too late for you

originally posted by: piney
Only through the water and the spirit
Can you be saved

If you have come to Jesus
It is because his father had sent you
As he will rise you up in the last days

Now you know why you have not found Jesus

As for proof of God all I have to offer you is his word
His word is prophecy
Revelations

When it comes true will you then believe
But by then it maybe too late for you

a reply to: scorpio84

Just be honest with us. What's your deal? Are you a theology student who needs "practice" dealing with external arguments? Because now you're just insulting our intelligence.

In the last week or so, you've made threads saying that a belief in God is irrational & that you could prove so without science. Then you turned around and made a thread claiming you could answer everyone's questions about Creationism, as if you believed in it. Now you claim you're either atheist or agnostic, as if you don't know that the 2 terms are completely different.

Just be honest & you'll probably get better results. "Hey ladies & gents, I'm trying to improve my religious debating skills." Or "I'm writing a book & need real life feedback on these 4 topics". Or even "Here are some religious topics I want to debate. Anyone in?". That would work much better than pretending that you're on a different side of the issue every 2 or 3 days. Nobody likes to feel like they're being lied to or manipulated. Is that really how you want to represent yourself?

In my time on this planet I've been lucky enough to see quite a lot of it and meet people good and bad of various belief systems. An example I will give was an elderly Buddhist monk I met in Luang Prabang Laos. My wife volunteered to assist young monks at the temple read English so whilst waiting I took the time to have a chat with this guy. He had been a monk most of his life and been through a fair share of hardship especially at the height of the Vietnam war which involved carpet bombing of Laos. He was well read educated and had a good knowledge of world events he made no attempt to push his beliefs upon me. All in all a nice man who didn't want to harm anyone or anything and willing to help anyone in need. Although he couldn't give much in material terms he would help any other way.

So are the Christians trying to tell us that when this judgement day arrives and this elderly man with his belongings in his orange bag eventually gets to the front of the queue. Whoever's doing the judging will ask him if he's born again, baptised, or found Christ and when he replies NO. He will be told sorry and sent to the elevator to make his way downstairs to the hell and brimstone floor.

Because if that is what you believe you should really have a look at your religion. The thing is although this man was a Buddhist in Laos there are lots like him all around the world of all religions.