Downing of Su-24 preplanned provocation -Russia

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: bigyin
How about putin attacking anything but isis?

Pop-quiz what Nation has been bombing Syria the longest? that would be the US.
They have been at for over a year and not a dent in ISIS.

Who's attacking everything but ISIS?
Heck, they dropped 50 TONNES of ammo and weapons in the middle of nowhere hoping it would reach the Rebels.
If any other nation would F up like this it would be under scrutiny of the whole world.
OR how about the trained rebels where the American Taxes are paying for who end up fighting ALONGSIDE ISIS.
Again... Really? Who's attacking everyone but ISIS?

a reply to: Belgianbloke

ISIS was not in the area russia was trolling in when they violated turkish airspace.
Russia was warned back in October about airspace violations and turkey told the world what their response will be if it happens again.
Russia has been attacking groups opposed to assad and not isis.

Actuality update :

Commander of Russia’s crashed Su-24 jet to get Hero of Russia title posthumously

Second pilot of downed Su-24 jet safe, brought to Russian base

a reply to: stumason

I completely appreciate your response and agree... However the West lie just as much, as we know, all too well.

TPTB want us to pick sides, Russia and the West each want us to pick sides - That's why the propaganda war has exploded over the last few months. I honestly feel though that rather than dancing to their beat we should rise above and read the situation for what it is.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: Belgianbloke

ISIS was not in the area russia was trolling in when they violated turkish airspace.
Russia was warned back in October about airspace violations and turkey told the world what their response will be if it happens again.
Russia has been attacking groups opposed to assad and not isis.

And we have been doing the same protecting corporate interests... Point being?
And so far Russia has been the only one to actually hurt Isis.

How do you know ISIS wasn't active in that Area? We all know the Turkey-Syria border is a hotbed for incoming ISIS members. every Muslim extremist uses Turkey as gateway.
Again, violating airspace? Everyone does it¨*cough senkaku islands* ( although that's a really grey area I admit )

I am surprised more folks are not contemplating on whether Russia pre-planned this provocation? They already knew what would happen. The pilots did not respond to Turkey. They now have NATO saying they are not going to get involved. Russia can now bombard that border where the FSA are hiding and the rest of the world will look the other way. If Turkey attempts to flyover the border to interact, NATO basically says they would not get involved, even if Russia shoots down their planes. It all seems like a win-win for Putin in the long run.

originally posted by: Agit8dChop
a reply to: Xcathdra

give it up.
you dont shoot down a plane for entering for 17seconds.

The US and Turkey discussed it and agree'd to shoot down a jet if it came close enough. the radar info, statements were all prepared in advance. If you want to use technicalities then lets look at the past 15yrs of illegal airspace incursions by the west.

Whats happening now is a major chess game. the West is getting its ar$e handed to it.. Its a game that started nearly 2 decades ago and has nothing to do with todays leadership.

They want stupid fools to sit around arguing over how many seconds the jet entered or how many warnings..

What BS. It's Putin that has had his ar$e handed to him and it cost the life of a pilot. Putin has gone into Syria with an arrogant swagger and the pro Russian folks have been getting all excited. Now the reality is hitting home. Syria is a mess. It has multiple sides all fighting each other. ISIS doesn't a give a rats ar$e about Turkey, Russia, Assad, US, NATO, UK, SFA etc. As long as all non ISIS are fighting and targetting muslims that's all that matters to them. It's all there for all to read, their aims and objectives and everyone is playing into their hands.

Into this horrible mix stir in a very hefty dose of corruption where people don't give a damn who they deal with as long as they make money and ISIS will survive for years.

originally posted by: Belgianbloke
But like most nations, when they aren't screwing the world over just sometimes they do something good.I really don't understand how you can tell us with a straight face that shooting an aircraft down for a 17 second airspace breach is justified.

Russia shot down an airliner that had left their airspace after a very brief overflight of their territory and that was with a fighter jet that had visual contact with the plane so could confirm it posed no threat.

All countries have established procedures for transgressions of their airspace and Turkey is no different. Given that Turkey has warned Russia and Syria, repeatedly, for past indiscretions, this shootdown should be no surprise. In fact, Turkey has also complained about villages being bombed/shelled inside their territory as well and are not happy about it.

originally posted by: CynConcepts
I am surprised more folks are not contemplating on whether Russia pre-planned this provocation? They already knew what would happen. The pilots did not respond to Turkey. They now have NATO saying they are not going to get involved. Russia can now bombard that border where the FSA are hiding and the rest of the world will look the other way. If Turkey attempts to flyover the border to interact, NATO basically says they would not get involved, even if Russia shoots down their planes. It all seems like a win-win for Putin in the long run.

In intriguing thought, I don't see it out the realm of possibility. Seems right up Putin's alley.
Although NATO did say they stand by Turkey's action, so not really successful tactic then.

a reply to: stumason

Didn't know about that airliner, will google that.
About bombing villages in Turkey, you sure it isn't Turkey itself?
They recently bombed a few villages themselves. Because PKK something.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: Agit8dChop

You do when russia violated Turkish airspace before in october and ignored warnings. You guys can try to distract / ignore that all you want the fact remains russia violated airspace and lost a jet for their arrogance.

If nations our now allowed to shoot each others planes for violating airspace, I'll predict a bloody mess in no time around the world.

a reply to: Belgianbloke

Although NATO did say they stand by Turkey's action, so not really successful tactic then.

could you provide a source for NATO saying they agreed with Turkey's actions ? There is good reason to believe that they acted on their own but may have had to follow the lines of communications agreed to by all the actors including Russia .

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Xcathdra

The entire ME is working with ISIS to sell their oil. It's no different than the UN Oil for Food scandal back in the Saddam days. Even Syria is selling ISIS oil. Where do you think ISIS is getting so much of their funding from and why do you think no one has bothered to bomb ISIS's oil infrastructure?

It would create too much of an oil crunch for too many.

If ISIS is selling oil to fund their cause, maybe it's time to start looking who's actually buying the damned oil.
They're just as guilty in my opinion.

a reply to: the2ofusr1

"NATO Allies follow developments very closely and stand in solidarity with Turkey."

www.newsonia.eu...

"As we have repeatedly made clear we stand in solidarity with Turkey and support the territorial integrity of our NATO ally, Turkey".

www.aljazeera.com...

originally posted by: and14263
a reply to: stumason

I completely appreciate your response and agree... However the West lie just as much, as we know, all too well.

TPTB want us to pick sides, Russia and the West each want us to pick sides - That's why the propaganda war has exploded over the last few months. I honestly feel though that rather than dancing to their beat we should rise above and read the situation for what it is.

I agree, don't pick any side in this, they're equally tainted.
The industrial military complex doesn't pick sides either....

a reply to: Belgianbloke

OK thanks . They don't quite say they agree with the actions Turkey took though . Turkey has said they warned the Jet for 5 min. but didn't know who's plane it was . Also that the incursion only lasted 17 sec. . Using this tactic they could start shouting warning 15 min. before a plane enters their air space that might not know who the warnings are for without direct contact . In this case the plane was heading away from the border but did ,or so it's been said momentarily spend 17sec. in violation . Turkey violates Greek air space 1000's of times and is complained about. Imagine if Grease suddenly bought a S300 system from Russia and started shooting . Turkey over stepped what has been normal ways of doing things . If this results in finer red lines then expect many planes going down ....just sayin ..

originally posted by: uncommitted

originally posted by: ken10

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: ken10

Nope i dont get paid for countering Russian propaganda and russian ignorance. Do you resort to personal attacks when your position is called into question?

Its not a personal attack, its just that you have become so obvious, and the lack of stars for your posts show who is the ignorant one....This is not a we Vs Russia campaign, it is the good people of the world against evil.

Low stars might mean people would rather read sensationalised, opinionated BS than actual facts - that's a shame isn't it, but then that's what some forums on ATS are all about.

Hahaha , well freakin said

originally posted by: Belgianbloke
a reply to: stumason

Didn't know about that airliner, will google that.

Korean Airlines Flight 007, if you're interested.

originally posted by: Belgianbloke
About bombing villages in Turkey, you sure it isn't Turkey itself?
They recently bombed a few villages themselves. Because PKK something.

No, I'm not confused with Turkish actions against PKK - I'm quite clued up on who's who there. But since the War began, Turkey has complained about shells landing their side of the border and most recently, have complained about Turkmen villages in Syria itself being hit by Russian airplanes - which incidentally is proof the Russians are not going after IS but rather any and all rebels.

If violating another nations airspace is such a big issue, then why haven't the Israelis been hammered for repeated violation and overflights of Lebanon? Why hasn't Turkey been taken to task about their over 2000 violations of Greek airspace in 2014 alone?

Lets also not forget that Turkey decided to move their border somewhat, although not internationally recognised, and rightly so!
The fact the Turkish aircraft opened fire after a 17 second alleged incursion does rather suggest they were ready and waiting, rather than being scrambled, which does suggest a pre-planned action.

Turkey has been the gateway for arms and fighters heading to swell the ISIS ranks from the outset but, they are a NATO member, which suggests NATO complicity in the rise and arming of ISIS, does it not? I am sure all the NATO members are well aware of what Turkey's actions are, and it's been reported often enough, just not in our controlled western media.

originally posted by: stumason

originally posted by: Belgianbloke
a reply to: stumason

Didn't know about that airliner, will google that.

Korean Airlines Flight 007, if you're interested.

originally posted by: Belgianbloke
About bombing villages in Turkey, you sure it isn't Turkey itself?
They recently bombed a few villages themselves. Because PKK something.

No, I'm not confused with Turkish actions against PKK - I'm quite clued up on who's who there. But since the War began, Turkey has complained about shells landing their side of the border and most recently, have complained about Turkmen villages in Syria itself being hit by Russian airplanes - which incidentally is proof the Russians are not going after IS but rather any and all rebels.

Ah poor Turkey. And how many Syrian aircraft has Turkey shot down in recent years? But no, just focus on the one that Syria shot down.

Aww, poor Al-Qaeda affiliated Turkmen getting bombed by Russia. Remember Al-Qaeda? Nah, you don't. They are our allies in the great war against the brutal dictator Assad. Because we hate brutal dictators and want to spread freedom and democracy right? That policy is going really well in Saudi Arabia!

Just keep pushing the narrative that Putin is bad and Russia violated airspace. Even if true, so what? Is that as bad as Turkey supporting ISIS?

Putin is no angel. He's bombing in Syria to further his own regional interests - just like everyone else. But he's supporting Assad and NATO and the Gulf States are supporting ISIS. It's hard not to cheer for Putin when those facts are undeniable.

This is a long article about just how complicit NATO and the Gulf States are in supporting ISIS:

I don't expect you or Xcathdra to read it as you love ISIS so much.