The neutral observer is the answer? I think not. I like to LIKE and i think you like it too.

a reply to: Manula

Perhaps mindfulness did indeed have its proper place in your path to enlightenment since it led you to this point where you can again feel renewed and ready to learn more. I have always believed a breath of fresh air can clear out the cobwebs. Keep breathing, Grasshopper.

One might suggest moderation, envisioning themselves as the center of the worlds most elaborate ven diagram, where every emotion or sensation dies to a calm gray medium. I disagree with this approach because it effectively puts you in a position where every feeling is canceled out. In order to apreciate joy, you must be able to cry. In order to appreciate anger, you must be able to laugh. It is the momentum of every sensation that lends the perspective to appreciate its opposite. So to deny yourself the experience of indulging is to under appreciate the virtues of discipline. It is for this reason I speculate as to how different vice and virtue really are. Diligence can become zealotry, humility can become cowardice, charity can become arrogance, etc.

a reply to: TzarChasm

I agree with your point.
Its by going through the opposites that we gain wisdom, so we must accept and embrace all reality, the good and bad experience.
Saying nothing is good or bad is like an escape from the game, its like cheating, you withdraw from the game.
Mindfulness is excellent to tame and sooth the mind but we are here to go after the good, while handling and accepting the bad. The game is a game of polarity, mindfulness, which is absence of polarity, is like a time off, to relax, but once we are recovered, we have to go back to the game.

Assigning a good-or-bad quality to experiences is a construct of the ego perspective. And how limited are our tiny perspectives(one millionth of reality)? The entire universal moment is inexclusively "good" in that all existence is all creation.

There is no opposite of good in the grand cosmic scheme. Therefore, meditation is much more than just a coping technique for reducing suffering. We learn that that which is the object of agitation and cause of suffering is good, and we practice regarding all experiences equanimously in mastery of the ego.

The ego is not an enemy. It is a cruel and undisciplined child and must be tamed and controlled.

Completely shedding the ego is only for a special few.

a reply to: Boomorangatangarang

You have to identities working within you, the human/body and the soul.
That soul/body complex is you.
The human body is the ego, the lower self. The soul is the higher self
The human must be controlled ad tamed its like the child, he he should be protected and loved by the soul, which is like the mother and father.
The child is not bad, he is just immature and self centered, the souls job is to make use of the best the child have and at the same time the soul must not let the child take control of the operations.
The soul, like a father and mother, must be good to his child, make him happy, but he makes the important decisions, he is the captain of the ship.
Just look at the chariot allegory from Plato, or the chariot card form Tarot. Thats what it means.
So.. the kill your ego/your ego is bad story doesn't make sense to me.

a reply to: Manula

Very well said. Your description is much better than mine. I had used the wrong words and mistakenly portrayed our ego as something inherently sinister. HAHA there's nothing sinister about a child! XD

I was mentioning the consequence of allowing the child to go rampant and get bigger and becomes a beast that devours other people.

So.. the kill your ego/your ego is bad story doesn't make sense to me.

Think about it karmically(metaphorically or literally), if you will. If we have past lives to to influence our internal tendencies, then conceivably there are multitudes of people all over who are without any tools for dealing with their broken, abusive, violent upbringing and are therefore stuck in their manifold hatreds.

There have been many people suck in that rut who spontaneously gave away all possessions and devote their whole live to practicing the art of no-self...or all-self...or both...

That takes a powerful ego to precipitate that kind of action. I'm so glad mine isn't such a monster...not that it isn't a little monster sometimes.

a reply to: Boomorangatangarang

Good words from you.
I believe the soul chooses the kind of child he wants to incarnate. Souls have preferences and choices, some souls don't wanna incarnate the calm and soft human, they like intense and passionate humans because the more intense, the more challenge it is to control and this means they will advance faster.
I know i have an intense and emotional human but i think my soul wouldn't like it the other way.
And of course, if the soul wants to learn about passion, obsession and self control, it needs an intense and emotional human full of desire and ambition for things of life.
So i guess it also depends on the lessons to learn.
Have you read Michael Newtons books, Journey of sSuls and Destiny of Souls? They are incredible.

a reply to: Peeple
Here is where I have a small problem with eastern ideology: LIVE IN THE MOMENT OF NOW; disregarding past or future outcomes. How is this supposed to represent the concept of a higher creator. Living in the moment suggests I am flying by the seat of pants with NO HELP given by a higher being. We humans are lost in the miasma of figuring or ourselves inventing a Creator exists at all (we do it out of faith alone).

a reply to: vethumanbeing

Eastern spirituality is all about mindfulness of the moment, not disregard of the past and future. There are many enlightened individuals who, either serendipitously or voluntarily, are placed at the mercy of "providence" and it works out for them, or it does not, yet they are still happy.

For the past, we must not forget, but most importantly, we must not give in to silently dwelling on memories for the sake of enjoyment, or because of the pain. The past is not now, therefore, it is not actively affecting us outside of our minds and emotions. We are not being honest and truthful if we remain emotionally attached to the past. Let go of our attachment to the past, and be at peace now.

For the future, when there is upcoming responsibility, it is very mindful to prepare for it when it is possible. When we make appointments, it is very mindful to write it down that very moment, "meeting next Thursday." While making sauerkraut, it is mindful presence that labels the different batches and the date, so it can be jarred 2 or 3 weeks later. Also, it is mindful presence that works hard to ensure the fermentation vessels are properly sterilized right now so as to inhibit and repel the growth of molds during the weeks or months.

It is mindful presence that makes sure we have enough food for the winter.

me i don't know about all this philosophy and metaphysics.
what makes me happy is i like to rock.

and it's good

I really relate to this. Mostly because have lived a large portion of my life as a neutral observer. It really limits you emotionally, especially when you get too deep into it.

I also have had the idea floating around in my head that we are all on different paths of the same mountain.

I find that my mind and ways of thinking naturally tread to darkness more often than not when in solidarity.

As a neutral observer I still stand by the fact that one side should not favor the other. But to not try and experience both side would go against my way of things, you can't observe it if you dont experience it.

I don't have a huge preference on either side, but one is definitely more easily accessible for me than the other.

All in all, we will all meet our fates, and intention is a lot of what counts. So I try not to take either too seriously. Just enjoy the ride.

originally posted by: Peeple
a reply to: Andy1144

Do you know what the self is? Doesn't sound like it. Or why would all your posts be so full of ego? Is it seen what i am trying to say?

I think it is funny when peeple lol, think they even know that self and ego exist.

Digging far deeper than the mantras that are TOLD to everyone and imprinted upon all around us, will reveal something else entirely, and one can see that enlightenment, as sold and advertised, is an utter waste of time.

How do you so easily trust what you are being sold ???

originally posted by: Boomorangatangarang
Assigning a good-or-bad quality to experiences is a construct of the ego perspective. And how limited are our tiny perspectives(one millionth of reality)? The entire universal moment is inexclusively "good" in that all existence is all creation.

There is no opposite of good in the grand cosmic scheme. Therefore, meditation is much more than just a coping technique for reducing suffering. We learn that that which is the object of agitation and cause of suffering is good, and we practice regarding all experiences equanimously in mastery of the ego.

The ego is not an enemy. It is a cruel and undisciplined child and must be tamed and controlled.

Completely shedding the ego is only for a special few.

Maybe the ego is not the problem, maybe it is the false surroundings that should be tamed and controlled.

It appears everyone believes the things which which have been written, and no one actually wants to GO AND FIND OUT, for ONCE AND FOR ALL.

And maybe a lot of things are at work here, tricking the very Universe itself into believing this Creation is on some sort of "Path", when its easy to see the path is far, FAR different.

originally posted by: Boomorangatangarang
a reply to: vethumanbeing

Boomoranga: Eastern spirituality is all about mindfulness of the moment, not disregard of the past and future. There are many enlightened individuals who, either serendipitously or voluntarily, are placed at the mercy of "providence" and it works out for them, or it does not, yet they are still happy.

This is what I said; live in the instant existence; moment to moment (NOW). I don't think 'untouchables' feel this way; and if do are the most copacetic people on earth living an a caste societal structure (one day I will not be perceived of less than human but a real human). Velveteen Rabbit memories.

Boomorang: For the past, we must not forget, but most importantly, we must not give in to silently dwelling on memories for the sake of enjoyment, or because of the pain. The past is not now, therefore, it is not actively affecting us outside of our minds and emotions. We are not being honest and truthful if we remain emotionally attached to the past. Let go of our attachment to the past, and be at peace now.

This is easy to laud over as one not oppressed. The past is not now; and only with significant contemplation will not let it intrude into the present (in agreement) as will color or contaminate any positives that show themselves/acted upon (fear factor thwarts ingenuity as trumps in fear the ability to create new circumstances).

The reason self is an illusion, is because we have experience of various phenomenon... then we label this experience of interaction with a name or quality like that adds any more validity to it's existence beyond contact... if that weren't bad enough,,, we claim these illusions as ours instead of things that naturally arise and pass frame by frame in ones sphere of reference... whether we choose to interact or acknowledge the experience as existent is a double edged sword... it creates karma or fate if you do, but claiming the experience as ours with various qualities instead of just an experience itself that is variable and changeable based on the perceptions, beliefs and ideologies one holds that draws a line of bias or unreality making a line of demarcation drawn by an ego or simply put oneself... neither is a solid foundation of reality.

This clinging to experience as ones own actually creates the self and gives rise to an ego to defend these experiences as ones own instead of simply just experience with no set reality other than what one grasps onto or perceives it to be instead of it just being what it is from one moment to the next. How you choose to interact with the reality left in ones perception is wholly left up to you... but you know the consequences of these interactions that others are creating by having a solid self as a thought form instead of the natural unbound spirit that's unattached to anything other than love, empathy and compassion... knowing that experience is a lead weight, and we have the choice of our albatrosses being around or necks or not.

I never expected to choose to remain and aid in the release of others. I took a Bodhisattva vow over 20 years ago and renounced it around 11 years ago on my path... it was wide and varied in the beginning but it became straighter and easier to see over time, then I sat down and started babbling like an infant thinking I was saying something people understood... it may have been realization but it was more a realization that this indeed was the path yet half way over... it wasn't until I shut up about it for several years dropped the dogma and just spoke of experience instead of about experience... that real progress started to be made into actual realization that cannot be undone.

To be honest it felt like a dirty trick... played by realized and enlightened beings... like hey follow this path get here realize that through experience but then let go of that experience and speak of that experience instead of own that experience... then you get there and it's like here share in my burden and mine and mine, like playing host to Vishnu, Buddha, Christ, and every god, goddess or anyone else that wanted to use your vessel to remember what that experience or know what that experience is like... while that frees karma and shows you equanimity playing host to such a guest where a self used to reside one has to be careful which is host and which is guest when whomever comes to visit, some enjoy your sense of being or energy more than their own and can attach to it and try to possess your consciousness instead of being respectful in ones house.

Over time one can build skill in playing a good host; as it is not at all pleasant in the beginning... it's like an echo chamber of so many clamoring in wants and desires, I suppose like everyone sharing their lower selves with one another on a level that's not harmful with mutual consent... of course the extreme and perhaps the opposite of realization is the constant sharing of their lower self without another's consent in the 3 worlds (body/speech/mind)... be it by direct speech or by animate volition of some sort with an unknown intention to others around them by way of subtle thought forms that cause interaction. These 3 have an impact... body is animate, but one does not know thought other than how others carry it by way of intention and support it by speech... or by use of siddhis; which I don't suggest as they are a hindrance, but I do suggest examining them to gain enough experience in how they manifest and how to bring a particular one in balance... but being careful to not become attached to them in the process as it can give rise to yet another illusory self... one that can tip into an extreme of grandeur or even madness, until one can find their way back out of that self made illusion; after already having wrestled ones way out of the other made delusions we find ourselves in when consciousness gives rise to form via birth yet again.

The quick and short is being honest in ones body, mind, and speech... is mindfulness training, knowing who is eating at your table, sitting in your chair, and sleeping in your bed like and momma, poppa, and baby bear telling themselves they are Goldilocks when looking into the mirror... you become a bear again, and you realize the ground is the table, the chair is just your butt, and bed is just a comfortable spot to curl up. Then you see a bunch of Goldilocks running around that decide to stop by once in awhile curious what it's like to be a bear unaware that's what they are; and then those that have gone before stop by and want to remember what being a bear was like... not so bad except when one comes to visit and wants to play Goldilocks again or only remembers you when you were a Goldilocks too.

Silly I suppose; but there's no reason to take any experience as ones own, form an ego, and then defend it like it exists anywhere solid except within ones self... the speech one attempts to validate ones existence with... the actions they carry out from volition with that was created by intention that originated from a thought form, whom the thought form arose from when thought in oneself ceases is a curious thing... what once sounded like ones inner voice with a fixed location, separates into many that come from various points in space than ones own center of being that is essentially void... the historical Buddha said life had but one taste; that of salt... but I suppose that was a nicety; when one realizes at face value, one cannot tell salty from sweet just by looking at salt and sugar... even coming from a jar with salt written on it... sugar is sugar the label doesn't create the experience of salt when filled with sugar... it has to be experienced to be known, but this salty and sweet varies not only to others, but each and every time one eats... so why experience the taste of life out of one bowl called self?

originally posted by: ParasuvO

originally posted by: Boomorangatangarang
Assigning a good-or-bad quality to experiences is a construct of the ego perspective. And how limited are our tiny perspectives(one millionth of reality)? The entire universal moment is inexclusively "good" in that all existence is all creation.

There is no opposite of good in the grand cosmic scheme. Therefore, meditation is much more than just a coping technique for reducing suffering. We learn that that which is the object of agitation and cause of suffering is good, and we practice regarding all experiences equanimously in mastery of the ego.

The ego is not an enemy. It is a cruel and undisciplined child and must be tamed and controlled.

Completely shedding the ego is only for a special few.

Maybe the ego is not the problem, maybe it is the false surroundings that should be tamed and controlled.

It appears everyone believes the things which which have been written, and no one actually wants to GO AND FIND OUT, for ONCE AND FOR ALL.

And maybe a lot of things are at work here, tricking the very Universe itself into believing this Creation is on some sort of "Path", when its easy to see the path is far, FAR different.

If this "creation" wasn't going anywhere, so what? Evacuate everyone out of it with some utterly bizarre solution coming out of thin air and questions/answers later?
Seems like a plan, but I'd like to know how the heck such a thing could be implemented.

a reply to: ParasuvO

The ego and the self are philosophical, psychologic concepts. Of course they exist. As everything you have a symbol for to talk about.

Double

originally posted by: Peeple
a reply to: ParasuvO

The ego and the self are philosophical, psychologic concepts. Of course they exist. As everything you have a symbol for to talk about.

Does 'tomorrow' exist?
If your answer is yes - please state clearly as to what tomorrow 'exists' as.

originally posted by: Manula
a reply to: Boomorangatangarang

You have to identities working within you, the human/body and the soul.
That soul/body complex is you.
The human body is the ego, the lower self. The soul is the higher self
The human must be controlled ad tamed its like the child, he he should be protected and loved by the soul, which is like the mother and father.
The child is not bad, he is just immature and self centered, the souls job is to make use of the best the child have and at the same time the soul must not let the child take control of the operations.
The soul, like a father and mother, must be good to his child, make him happy, but he makes the important decisions, he is the captain of the ship.
Just look at the chariot allegory from Plato, or the chariot card form Tarot. Thats what it means.
So.. the kill your ego/your ego is bad story doesn't make sense to me.

Excellent analogy! It makes me think of 'sins of the father'. As a father, we must be humble, we must share our wisdom, and at times we must be a hypocrit. Embrace being the 'captain' and share your wisdom always!