Belief in ghosts in vietnam.

a reply to: Baddogma

The answer "that everyone is still here" is possibly right on, but I'd guess the "here" is on a different 'level' ...at least the place we are supposed to go might be overlayed on this "dimension" (terms are problematic when we don't know for sure what we're talking about!) or "frequency" ... interesting thought on gravity being a constant, but some of the accounts mention floating, or at least they don't all seem bound by gravity, but as we think we can detect gravity from other universes, then perhaps it IS a constant... though physical structure itself sure seems malleable, at the least.

I think about this stuff too much sometimes. The idea that 'everyone is still here' doesn't make sense in the context of what we know about energy and physics. Let's say we are a form of energy matrix that continues to exist when the corporeal body dies? What perpetuates the energy? What does it feed off?

If it becomes a 'ghost,' what propels it? From where does it generate momentum? And if our characters are generated by nature and nurture, what gives character to a ghost? What else would motivate them to be such dicks?

I think something interesting occurs and haven't ever managed to make a sensible case for it.

a reply to: Baddogma

a reply to: intrptr

Excellent stories.

The second one gave me the chills.

Seems like it was a regular occurrence judging by the guards reaction.

a reply to: Kandinsky

As far as thinking about this stuff 'too much'... I hear ya. But I think it's rather important... for humanity in general and personally as we lose loved ones and get nearer our own expiration dates!

Unfortunately, religious dogma can sure muddy up these discussions.

And I tend to agree with your points... my own take is that this physical reality is different, or separate, from our place of origin, which might be more ...er, mental, heh, or just a realm of consciousness, whatever the heck that means, really.

But energy is the key constant, and we are missing some puzzle pieces about the nature of what we term 'energy.'

And yeah, why are so many invisible folks such dicks? I don't buy the standard (puerile) good vs evil team sport theory... although I must say I've run into some invisible things that brought a cold, lonely hollowness with them, and I could apply the other 'D word' to them as "dick" doesn't quite do justice to their horrid ambiance.

But what if those nasty creatures just need some love and guidance? Heh, I picture a reformatory for 'demons.'

I like the theory that physicality is needed to effect change to an energy being, or as some posit, to birth them... but as always, I'm not sure of much of anything... except that this 'spirit' stuff occurs and it doesn't seem sensible at all... with what we think we know anyways!

a reply to: Kandinsky

The idea that 'everyone is still here' doesn't make sense in the context of what we know about energy and physics.

The alternative being, the earth is moving at 18000 miles an hour in some random direction, trailing sparks of spirits that once dead are no longer bound by gravity.

Except, how do we account for the reports of haunted ships, they travel the world with a ghost trapped in their hull. How about certain roads that appear haunted by specters, even hitching rides with hapless commuters?

How does a ghost not bound by earthly realm keep reappearing in the same place over centuries? If the earth moves, how do they (edit: 'hang on'?)

a reply to: intrptr

In a quantum sense, what we know about reality and physics is only what we can quantify, identify and link to what we understand presently.

I think the evidence is pointing now towards consciousness being the true primordial modus operandi in the universe(s).

It could be that these spirits (ghosts?) need the energy of Earth to persist here, and/or these energies keep them here until what ever releases them. Also, some things that we think are spirits, are really some form of latent energy stored in the environment that sometimes leaks out at irregular intervals. We certainly have a lot to learn.

a reply to: intrptr

a reply to: Baddogma

Yeah, I've got a cool eye on my own expiration date and have thought a lot about the afterlife...or lack of one.

Most traditions hold to some beliefs in the afterlife and a world around us that's occupied by spirits and entities. My own experiences in life tend to lend credence to such views. At the same time, there's no escaping the fact that we imagine things and that our brains are prone to misfiring and/or misinterpreting signals. I mean, I've had hypnagogic and hypnopompic experiences that I know have been faulty firings of synapses. If I didn't know that, or lived in another culture, they would be inevitably taken as evidence for a belief in the supernatural.

And so I remain undecided about traditions of spirits. Most cultures around the world have these beliefs and won't ever have heard of sleep paralysis, temporal lobe epilepsy, schizophrenia or random dissociative episodes. How would they differentiate between a ghostly incident and a psychological one?

We might actually be discussing things that have no existence outside of our words, texts and imaginations. Can you imagine that? It's kinda grim in its naked honesty. Think of all these centuries of humanity and how our cultures (even wars) have been informed and shaped by these stories and beliefs in ghosts and afterlives. Consider a world where they all were imagined.

On the other hand, subjectively, we are left with the impression that something else, something more is at work and remains out of sight. In all honesty, it leaves me marooned in a sea of existential angst.

a reply to: Kandinsky

How would they differentiate between a ghostly incident and a psychological one?

Others in the room at the time, is one way. Remembering that 'paranormal' experiences are a sum total of events that are witnessed, all adding up together to make one go… wait a sec… lending more credibility to our own personal erm, jaded, uhm, mind set.

Thats why I keep coming with it, because to me its been more than illness or flights of fancy, whatever. I wished it weren't so but things do happen. I'm going to have to do some threads… one day… I keep saying that. Some of the experiences I've had are so compelling, they should all be put down so others can review them.

Yeah, I've got a cool eye on my own expiration date and have thought a lot about the afterlife…or lack of one.

Humbleness, thats a good trait. You'll be fine, Kandinsky. When you get there have them look me up and I'll be a character reference.

a reply to: charlyv

and/or these energies keep them here until what ever releases them.

Must be. Its a big Universe.

It takes a while to fly around from point to point on the earth itself, how long does it take to traverse the stars?

We certainly have a lot to learn.

Like babies, wondering whats outside the womb?

a reply to: Baddogma

What i read from near death experiences and books...
Those ghost are trapped for various reasons, for example unfinished business, traumatic death (unaware and reliving the death), do not believe in afterlife, too low soul vibration (e.g. too much bitterness/sadness/anger/negative feelings/earthly desires like lust). Another type of trapped souls are those who went through life reviews (which include experiencing how the people they treated feel) are unable to forgive themselves and condemn themselves to a place of inbetween (akin to hell).

a reply to: Kandinsky

Consider a world where they all were imagined.

If I imagine a piece of art, then create something based on what I imagined - the art is real (obviously) but so is the idea behind the art

If a ghost doesn't in reality exist but we believe it does and live as if it does - what's the difference?

I used to have a kind of olfactory hallucination. I smelled oranges when I was happy. It was lovely, but seems to have gone away...I don't really feel like exploring all that - but I miss it :-)

They weren't ever real oranges I was smelling - but I didn't know the difference

We might actually be discussing things that have no existence outside of our words, texts and imaginations. Can you imagine that? It's kinda grim in its naked honesty.

It really is. But it's all still meaningful - and beautiful. I've always believed that all our thinking depends on an elaborate kind language made entirely of metaphor. Everything means something - even when it's not real

In all honesty, it leaves me marooned in a sea of existential angst.

I always wonder, if mankind completely disappeared - would all our words and art, stories and thinking mean anything anymore? If none of it was ever discovered? All of it just nothing more than matter - stone, paper, cloth and computer discs?

Weird

:-)

a reply to: intrptr

t takes a while to fly around from point to point on the earth itself, how long does it take to traverse the stars?

And if it turns out that spirits use quantum mechanisms, then it may take no time at all!

Goes way out there in what we are able to understand, if so.

originally posted by: everyonedies
a reply to: Baddogma

What i read from near death experiences and books...
Those ghost are trapped for various reasons, for example unfinished business, traumatic death (unaware and reliving the death), do not believe in afterlife, too low soul vibration (e.g. too much bitterness/sadness/anger/negative feelings/earthly desires like lust). Another type of trapped souls are those who went through life reviews (which include experiencing how the people they treated feel) are unable to forgive themselves and condemn themselves to a place of inbetween (akin to hell).

The daunting question is , how are they trapped? What is the nature of of this energy that traps them?

I think that somewhere in quantum physics lies the answer, but we are at primitive stages of understanding it.
Getting a handle on some concrete evidence will unite science with what is considered paranormal. It is the way it has to be approched, IMO. There are certainly some great minds out there working on it.

originally posted by: charlyv
a reply to: intrptr

t takes a while to fly around from point to point on the earth itself, how long does it take to traverse the stars?

And if it turns out that spirits use quantum mechanisms, then it may take no time at all!

Goes way out there in what we are able to understand, if so.

My guess it must work the way it does here. On earth there is developing technology, getting higher, further, faster all the time. I don't see any end to that, so I gotta figure that tech isn't stagnant off world either (what a drag that would be) and if so then they have to take time to get somewhere, too.

The only evidence I have for this is two observations.

One is Roswell, after we captured the disk in 47, they returned in 52 (the washington flap) to retrieve their personnel and tech. They buzzed the capital, flew in formation on radar and made such a flap…. why was that?

To get their Roswell guys back?

Then theres Jesus who said, Im leaving now, but I'll be back. Huh? Leaving to where, for how long, by what means?

How long a round trip has it been?

Like you said, out there.

PS: I read Jonathan Livingston Seagull, too.

The thingy I saw on a hill a long time ago was tech, not "spirit".

a reply to: Kandinsky

I was going to let this "well, I wonder if this spirit stuff is mistaken" be... as Intrptr handled it well, but work is slow today and I'm feeling expansive ... and so I want to reinforce that my own conviction came from something more than folklore, reading, media or even personal experience.

The rare experiences that personally cemented this "stuff" as a reality happened above and beyond a whole slew of things that could, at least, be argued to be more indeterminate... there was no wondering about hypnogogic gobly-gook or neurological misfiring with these instances... it was stuff experienced by more than just me.

I'm well aware that our sense apparatus and brain's processing are both faulty, no matter how healthy one is, but the things that cemented it for myself were things one couldn't revise a comforting, convoluted explanation for, later.

These instances involved things like everyone in a full living room hearing a cacophony from an 'empty' room a few feet away ... going in to assure ourselves it was indeed empty, leaving and then immediately hearing what sounded like furniture and boxes of ceramics being thrown around while two large wrestlers grappled. That evening ended with hip, agnostic pseudo (and real) intellectuals earnestly chanting the Lord's Prayer, heh.

Then there was the time we (my gf, myself and two visitors and our dogs) were in the living room and all saw flickering lights coming from our kitchen in the next room. Fearing a fire had broken out we charged in and saw a vaguely human-shaped blob of revolving, multi-colored lights that then slowly sank into our kitchen floor.

So I would still be wondering if the stuff were just personal, or even just expereinced by myself and a significant other, as couple's worlds are, by nature, more than a wee bit delusional ... but it wasn't, so I'm not.

Now I'm just wondering how and why.

a reply to: Baddogma

Yeah, there's the world we live in and there's the ifs and buts world that's possibly wrapped around that one. When the mood takes me, I play Devil's Advocate with myself and a lot of posts are a reflection of that thought process. Where I appear to be dismissing something, it's frequently just an appearance and the cogs and gearwheels are still whirring.

In the house I grew up in, there were occasional incidents that suggested 'haunting.' Taken individually, they might be dismissed. Taken as an accumulation of thematically similar occurrences and we might consider a pattern or a signal in the noise. My family and guests have heard footsteps on the stairs and landing when nobody was there. Bumps and bangs in empty rooms. Objects not being where they should be and turning up days later etc

My own bedroom was above a room where I would sometimes hear deep male voices in conversation. Of course, I didn't want to be hearing voices and got into the habit of sleeping with the radio on. A family friend was looking after the house a few years ago when my folks had gone away. One sunny afternoon, she went in to feed the fish and heard talking in that same room. Assuming my folks had returned early, she went in to say hello and it was empty.

My dad is a master joiner. When he a hangs a door, he can balance it so it naturally favours being closed. Their bedroom door is hanged like that and still, on occasion, will open inwards during the night and taps against their bed.

It doesn't make a lot of sense which is why I mentioned the dickishness and mindlessness of such things. They don't suggest to me anything of intelligence and seem random and meaningless.

a reply to: thebabyseagull

God damn it. I hate it when my sow has only males and then I have to kill them all.

a reply to: Brett83

I thought it funny that the guy killed himself rather than sacrifice his pigs.

He must have really loved them pigs.

Then when he died the villagers killed them anyway.