How many of you have read the Quran?

originally posted by: Ove38

originally posted by: Ectospasm
How many of you have read the Quran?

I have, the writers have no respect for God and Jesus Christ.

Don't sugar coat it like that, just say what you really think. You can't though…

In a nut shell, Western traditional Christian Ethos holds that there is only 'one true God, all others are the devil in disguise. So all other religions are de facto worshipping the devil.

Now wonder the west bombs other cultures with such impunity. Damn Heathens…

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs
A lot of people on ATS talk like they've read it.

Like they can comprehend it.


I'm suspicious of that.

It is not the books I have an issue with.

It's people.

Muslims in the Middle East, regardless of sect, tend to be extremely conservative in their religious views. This has been proven in survey after survey.

Apostasy punishable by death, hatred and murder of homosexuals, subservient women, and intolerance toward other cultures and general approval of terrorist groups like Al Qaeda.

These things don't exist in a vacuum on their own. They are borne from the same ideologies, many of which are sourced in the Quran and Hadith. If Christians today took the Bible as literally and conservatively as Muslims do then you would see many of the same things that we are seeing from the Islamic world today.

The problem with the West is that they refuse to understand those concepts in context. They are busy trying to be PC about it rather than facing the reality of what it is we're actually fighting. For that reason alone I think we should get the hell out of the Middle East in general.

Pew Research General Survey and application of Sharia in Muslim countries

This should give us a pretty clear idea of just how conservative the Islamic population of the world really is. It is this Fundamentalism that gives birth to Islamic Terrorism as the word of God is to be taken absolutely literally.

This may not be all Muslims of all sects, but it should be noted that they are the vast majority. No Western Power will ever change this. The culture must change itself over time. Our mistake as "progressive" liberal societies is to think we share political, ideological, and cultural similarities, we do not. That we can force such a conservative and religious society to conform to our ideals. We can't.

a reply to: projectvxn

These things don't exist in a vacuum on their own. They are borne from the same ideologies, many of which are sourced in the Quran and Hadith.

In China and India their cultures have women subservient, too. They are Budhist and Hindu, not Muslim.

Men are stronger so they take advantage, whatever culture, ethnicity or geographic location.

You got girls in your ship, PJ?

I keep thinking of what I thought when I read the Qur'an.

I kept thinking MIKE JONES!! who? MIKE JONES!! It may be a different chapter but they all have the same hook.

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: projectvxn

These things don't exist in a vacuum on their own. They are borne from the same ideologies, many of which are sourced in the Quran and Hadith.

In China and India their cultures have women subservient, too. They are Budhist and Hindu, not Muslim.

Men are stronger so they take advantage, whatever culture, ethnicity or geographic location.

You got girls in your ship, PJ?

Please don't try to start a fight with me.

The focus here is on the topic of Islam, particularly the Quran.

The fact is Western muslims do not share a lot of the same conservative ideologies as their Middle Eastern counterparts. Muslims in Europe, who grew up European, are largely part of their respective societies and well assimilated to cultural norms. They do not practice what is sometimes referred to as "political Islam". This is even more so with American Muslims.

I serve in the US Army with Muslims in my formation. In the town near post there is an active and proud Muslim community, even if it is small. Back home, when I get out of the army, I will be going back to a city with a larger Muslim population, many of which are friends that I miss very much.

While I was in Afghanistan I served with Afghan SF and regular ANA. I do not hate Muslims so please don't try to paint my words in such a way. I will not, however, ignore the realities of just how different our two cultures are. Nowhere was this more apparent than when you're sitting around a fire in a remote FOB, half staffed with Afghans, and you're all sharing a meal and trying to understand each other through broken English and unfamiliar customs.

a reply to: projectvxn

Apostasy punishable by death, hatred and murder of homosexuals, subservient women, and intolerance toward other cultures and general approval of terrorist groups like Al Qaeda.

Those are Hadith ideologies...

If those were in the Quran I wouldn't have converted.



So we differ, because I do have a problem with those books (Hadith)...

I think they're a mixture of psychopathy and outright satirical garbage.


Polling whether one would prefer Sharia is not the same as polling whether it should be forced on a population.

The Quran is succinct in stating that Muslims must obey the law of the land so long as it doesn't contradict the Quran.

I've never seen a forced pork eating law or anything similar...

The only one I can think of is usury and interest rates.

Which is why most Muslims ask for sharia interpretation in community transactions.


Obviously that gets fearmongered into "they want to behead infidels"...

Tbh I could go my whole life not wanting anyone but paedos beheaded...
I'm satisfied with live and let live... As my signature alludes to.

a reply to: projectvxn

The focus here is on the topic of Islam, particularly the Quran.

Which has nothing to do with…

Apostasy punishable by death, hatred and murder of homosexuals, subservient women, and intolerance toward other cultures and general approval of terrorist groups like Al Qaeda.

I'm not picking a fight with you, I had a problem with that statement.

originally posted by: Iamthatbish
It's very difficult to read the Qur'an. Your best bet would be to go to a sit that have both Arabic and English translation together.

I found it to be very repetitive. Like a song with the same verse again and again and again.

I agree. I've read an english translation but feel I miss something in the translation. And I've read most of it, but as you say it is very repeatious and not as easy cover to cover book. I hold a ba in history and classics with a religious studies minor in case anyone questions whether or not I could understand it.

a reply to: intrptr

Argue with the results of how Middle Eastern conservative Muslims view their own faith. This faith is derived not just from literal interpretations of the Quran, but of subsequent texts such as the Hadith.

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs
A lot of people on ATS talk like they've read it.

Like they can comprehend it.


I'm suspicious of that.

They're not going to understand it from your perspective, because they are not Muslim. Christians feel the same way. Unless one has been a Christian, there is much that will go over your head. Many Christians feel that if you've left Christianity, you were never one to start with, and/or you can't understand it. In other words, if you now disagree with them, you never understood it to begin with. Many Muslims may feel the same way. You would know that better than I.

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

Tbh I could go my whole life not wanting anyone but paedos beheaded...
I'm satisfied with live and let live... As my signature alludes to.

And this is illustrative of the point I was trying to make. You've clearly grown into a much less conservative view of Islam.

Those are Hadith ideologies...

If those were in the Quran I wouldn't have converted.



So we differ, because I do have a problem with those books (Hadith)...

I think they're a mixture of psychopathy and outright satirical garbage.


Polling whether one would prefer Sharia is not the same as polling whether it should be forced on a population.

I didn't say that. What was actually said served only to illustrate just how conservative in ideology Middle Eastern Muslims are.

I think any belief system has to be considered in terms of the environment in which the people that adhere to it find themselves.

Human beings living in a tough life, with a harsh existence will become more extreme, and look for something that they can cling to that will give them hope and a reason to carry on living, their daily struggle to survive.

Faith, hope and belief are all that keep some humans alive in some places on earth, because their is nothing else.

originally posted by: projectvxn
a reply to: intrptr

Argue with the results of how Middle Eastern conservative Muslims view their own faith. This faith is derived not just from literal interpretations of the Quran, but of subsequent texts such as the Hadith.

Subsequent misinterpretations of texts from Antiquity is the problem, I agree. Of all texts.

I said that on page one.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

For anyone interested

The Quran contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers for the sake of Islamic rule. Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding. Muslims who do not join the fight are called 'hypocrites' and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter. Unlike nearly all of the Old Testament verses of violence, the verses of violence in the Quran are mostly open-ended, meaning that they are not restrained by the historical context of the surrounding text. They are part of the eternal, unchanging word of Allah, and just as relevant or subject to interpretation as anything else in the Quran.

www.thereligionofpeace.com...

a reply to: Klassified

There are a great many theologian professors who are masters in a great many religions...

I don't mind admitting I never understood trinitarianism.

I'd state it matter of factly that I didn't and still don't.

a reply to: intrptr

Subsequent misinterpretations of texts from Antiquity is the problem, I agree. Of all texts.

That's not at all what I'm saying.

You cannot tell a majority population that their interpretation of their own faith is wrong and yours is right. We've been trying to convince ourselves that we can. I've been trying to illustrate this fallacy since my opening post in this thread.

To wit:

This should give us a pretty clear idea of just how conservative the Islamic population of the world really is. It is this Fundamentalism that gives birth to Islamic Terrorism as the word of God is to be taken absolutely literally.

This may not be all Muslims of all sects, but it should be noted that they are the vast majority. No Western Power will ever change this. The culture must change itself over time. Our mistake as "progressive" liberal societies is to think we share political, ideological, and cultural similarities, we do not. That we can force such a conservative and religious society to conform to our ideals. We can't.

The paint on this wall is dry. The problem with Westerners, as my Afghan counterparts like to put it, is that they all seem to think that everyone thinks like them. And those that don't think like them are simply "not getting it". This isn't the case here. It is you who doesn't get it.

originally posted by: Ectospasm
I am curious. I have not read it myself, but I am thinking about giving it a go. It seems to me that unless someone has read the book there is really no sensible basis on which it can be judged.

For what purpose?

Many of the posts are vilifying the religion and citing this as the cause rather than understanding complex social, historical, political economic and regional factors that all have an effect when it comes to influencing people to commit acts of brutality.

It is not the Muslin faith or Quran being attacked. It is the people that say they are the right Muslin sect and all this evil they are doing is well within the teaching of the Quran. They are going to kill every Muslin not aligned with them and attack the evil west as much as they can. These people live their faith 24/7 but do these horrid acts, so to them they are right and everyone else is wrong.

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs

Obviously that gets fearmongered into "they want to behead infidels"...

Tbh I could go my whole life not wanting anyone but paedos beheaded...
I'm satisfied with live and let live... As my signature alludes to.

It seems to be driven more by what they consider social norms than anything else. I still do not understand what drives a person to want to kill as they do and also kill themselves in the process to killing others. These are Muslin people that somehow are lead to do these extreme acts.

Maybe you can spread some light on this. I have spent many years in the middle east and I have seen the same desires there as here. A father wants to provide a good home for his family, wants to see his children become successful with their own family too. A very simple concept that is common around the world, so what creates this true evil as we see today.

a reply to: Xtrozero

so what creates this true evil as we see today.

In one word:

Politics

originally posted by: projectvxn
In one word:

Politics

Ya I heard that before...Got to blame Bush or Obama, but it takes something much bigger to turn men into evil killing machines even if it means their own lives. No one in the west trained these people to be as they are, but there is something driving them to do acts that have not been seen since the dark ages.