Israel going with SE Eagles

originally posted by: Shiloh7
a reply to: cavtrooper7

Isn't it odd one would think the strictly religious would be buying things for peace, not weapons for the destruction of others.

Makes one realise how little faith and trust the religious truly have in the God they worship.

God helps those who help themselves.

Not sure what kind of odd logic you must have to think that if you believe in a diety and he exists, he's suddenly your Dad and will beat up all the other kids and solve life's problems for you.
No point in Free Will if there are no consequences or struggle and no point being alive and NOT following the God if he did such things.

Introducing very shallow attacks at religion in a thread that has nothing to do with is unnecessary and childish. Please save that for other, more appropriate forums.

a reply to: Zaphod58

Now the question is, will politics end up winning out and will we end up stiffing them the F-35's while giving them the V-22's and an 80-bird production run of F-15SE's to keep the lines warm in Wichita?

Coming off that major Boeing loss, kudos to the Israelis for having the savvy to push for the -SE at a time when market factors (Hello Rafale and Su-35 sales!) and industrial base concerns are suddenly making it that much more likely for the DOD to allow the -SE to happen so that Boeing can stay in the game until F-XX/F/A-XX happens.

a reply to: Barnalby

They're getting the F-35s either way. The SEs would only number two squadrons, and would be a second line, similar to how the F-22 and F-15 were set up. Their first aircraft is on the assembly line now, and will fly in early 2016, with delivery in December 2016.

a reply to: Zaphod58

You forgot to mention the air craft carrier...

a reply to: cavtrooper7

They've talked about it, but Israel would never seriously want a carrier. It limits them too much in that region, and it's too vulnerable, especially with a nation that has never operated large ships. The learning curve would be far too steep and take far too long.

a reply to: Zaphod58

I wondered how it could possbly sail without a sufficent group to support it.
Not that the Israeli military are incompetent but NO carrier would live long alone in a battle.

originally posted by: Blackfinger
Still only a gen 4.5 airframe if you paint it with RAM,throw some exotic avionics in it and maybe reshape some bits but hardpoints are still external and radar hot points.

It still outclasses everything in the vicinity. Well except from Saudi and Egypt if they get Rafale. But these are friendlier nations.

a reply to: Zaphod58

So my question is why not double down on more F-35's. If the price difference is 10 mil, wouldn't it just make more sense to splurge on more of the best?

a reply to: Bfirez

They can get the SE faster than more F-35s, with an easier transition, lower support costs, etc.

you know i know it's a old airframe and that what i post below is highly unlikely to happen to much.
but a aircraft that will bring you back after taking this much damage, i wouldn't blame them for wanting to keep them flying and updated for as long as they can.



and just for sh@@ and giggles

a reply to: Zaphod58

And isn't there an argument to be made that a gen 4.5++ fighter, especially one rocking the AESA and other toys that the -SE has, is a better fit for air defense than a gen 5 strike fighter could often be?

I just really want to see this deal happen, as I think the -SE could be an utterly phenomenal air superiority platform for the export market, and a great way to plug the gap between the -22 and the 6th gen fighters.

The platform has India/Canada/Australia written all over it, and I bet they could even get some other parties interested who may not necessarily need as strike-oriented of a platform as the -35.

a reply to: Barnalby

The SE would be far better for the base defense mission than the F-35 would be. It would also make a great strike escort and be able to fly a HI-LO-HI CAP, or even a LO-CAP for the strike package, where older Eagles couldn't without giving it away.

a reply to: Barnalby

The SE is not a stealth aircraft. Like a Super Hornet it has design changes intended to decrease its radar return, but they're fundamentally limited by the internal geometry which is why 5th Gen aircraft have a substantial advantage: They were designed from the very start knowing that stealth features were a primary requirement. The F-15SE is like any other 4++ Gen aircraft, no different from a Su-35. They will fare better than their older brethren, but the fact is that in order to deal with modern air defenses stealth is a need. If you try to fly into zones protected by an S-300 site (a very real possibility in Syria) you are really going to wish you had a stealth aircraft to do it with.

Keep in mind that the F-35 is not a strike aicraft: it is multirole. It's a strike aircraft for the US, who have the F22 to deal with air threats. But, it can do air superiority, and it can do strike. Will it be the best in the world at either of those? Well, no, it won't. but it will be better than the SE. If you are running a SE, you are only doing missions that do not require stealth. Somebody else will have had to kick in the door, because you will be seen and shot down in a protected zone. If you are running the F-35, you can fly with a lot more confidence. The F-15 is great for areas which have already had their defenses shredded and air superiority established. But if you have to go up against more modern aircraft or air defenses, the F-15 will not be able to do either of those things by itself without taking losses.

a reply to: Zaphod58

Outfit it with Meteors, which could totally happen given its potential buyers and the space available in the conformal weapons bays, and you'd have the spiritual successor to the Tomcat. With an F-35 grade AESA/ECM package and frontal stealth.

The addition of the second man/RCO would make it arguably the most terrifying air defense platform out there right now.

a reply to: Barnalby

As nice as the Meteor is, I'd rather have the Python 5.

originally posted by: Zaphod58As nice as the Meteor is, I'd rather have the Python 5.

Both missiles are different and not comparable. I'd have both. No, I would have ASRAAM instead of Python.

a reply to: paraphi

As nice as the ASRAAM is, the Python family is hard to beat for IR missiles. The Python 5 seeker is one of the most advanced in the world.

a reply to: Zaphod58

So to replicate the Tomcat's armaments, carry Meteors as a long-range Phoenix 2.0, ASRAAM as mid-range AIM-7 replacement, and the Python 5 as a sidewinder on serious steroids.

Argument solved!

a reply to: Barnalby

Wait until Japan gets done with the Meteor, and you'll have one of the best air to air missiles ever developed. Although instead of ASRAAM, go with the AAM-4 or AAM-5/5B. Two of the most advanced Western missiles that no one has heard of.

a reply to: Zaphod58

Now the real question will be whether or not they add a second seat to the ATD-X when they build it. The idea of what would essentially be an all-aspect stealth F-15C with that beastly AESA, that insane paddle-based 3-D thrust vectoring system, and a complement of internally-carried tweaked Meteors (and that equally terrifying antiship missile they have), is something I'm irrationally excited about the possibility of.

Would we call it a Gen 5++?