An Indictment Of Atheists

originally posted by: Barcs

originally posted by: Blue Shift
That's a word to the wise. If you call yourself an atheist you give yourself a label for religious people to latch onto and judge you by. Don't give them a chance to define you by their narrow categories.

But at the same time, nobody should be ashamed of who they are. They shouldn't have to hide who they are or what they believe (or don't believe) to avoid being judged by intolerant extremist religious folk. Be proud of who you are and what you believe, because you know the religious people won't hold that back. I get it if you fear bodily harm, but in reality no true Christian is going to judge you over it or harm you because you don't believe their religion.

Old wisdom: Do not talk Politics or Religion.

When is there reason anyone needs to know you are atheist.

I have nothing to prove. My atheism focuses on Separation of Church and State. If you aren't a politician I want on my side - - you don't need to know.

Do you try to push your atheism like some try to push their religion?

originally posted by: Barcs
I get it if you fear bodily harm, but in reality no true Christian is going to judge you over it or harm you because you don't believe their religion.

The notion that everybody should wear who they are or what they believe on their sleeves is a recent one. I like the idea of myself and others shutting the hell up and keeping our/their beliefs and attitudes nice and private.

Except here, of course, where everything is good and anonymous.

a reply to: Gryphon66

I understand what you're saying and it makes complete sense. But I have personal and philosophical reasons which have lead me to deny all labels except for my birth name, which has served me well for my labelling purposes.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: Annee

NO. It takes the position, "If you can prove it, I'll belief it".

It doesn't. A lack of belief is a position like a lack of food is a meal. A lack of anything is literally nothing. So no, not a position, not an argument, but nothing.

Are you atheist?

Yes nothing. Atheism is not a belief or lack of belief.

It is a default position unless you can prove there is a God.

originally posted by: Blue Shift

originally posted by: Prezbo369
Unless you hold a belief in god/s, then it's an entirety accurate description.

Come up with a consistent, non-paradoxical definition for "god" that incorporates all the various interpretations, and I might agree with you. Particularly the Christian god. That one is runs from "love" to a human prophet crucified a couple millennia ago, to a giant bearded Grandpa in the sky, to one's "best friend."

And I don't believe any of those definitions, ergo.... I'm a... you know what. The part we don't believe IS the definition. I don't believe in dragons. Well what if a dragon isn't a giant flying lizard that brethes fire, what if it is this totally other thing. The dragon I don't believe in is the fire-breathing giant flying lizard kind. I have nothing to say about these other possible dragons that could be litererally anything.

a reply to: Annee

Are you atheist?

Yes nothing. Atheism is not a belief.

It is a default position unless you can prove there is a God.

I'm not an atheist, no.

Ignorance is the default position. If that's the position you support, I say go for it. But pretty soon we have to give up speaking about nothing and start talking about somethings.

originally posted by: Annee
Old wisdom: Do not talk Politics or Religion.

Exactly. The wisest of us figured out a long time ago that religion and politics are things nobody is going to change their minds about as a result of a discussion. They may slowly change their minds over long periods of time and by having different life experiences, but since beliefs tend to be emotional and irrational, no good is to be had by "debating" them.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: Annee

Are you atheist?

Yes nothing. Atheism is not a belief.

It is a default position unless you can prove there is a God.

I'm not an atheist, no.

Ignorance is the default position. If that's the position you support, I say go for it. But pretty soon we have to give up speaking about nothing and start talking about somethings.

There is nothing to support.

Burden of proof is on the believer.

originally posted by: Tearman
And I don't believe any of those definitions, ergo.... I'm a... you know what.

You're a person who doesn't believe in... something... or nothing. The undefinable. In my book, that's not "not believing in God." It isn't anything.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
For one, to "lack belief" would be to take the position of an ignorant child. Believers don't say they "lack doubt". To believe or to doubt is the correct action taken towards any given proposition. Once we hear an argument we make a commitment towards its veracity. We believe it is true or false. A "lack of belief" is not any sort of commitment, but sounds more like extirpation of whatever beliefs were once there, almost like some void is left over. We don't lack belief that they are true, or lack doubt that they are false. We believe one way or the other.

Not really. The agnostic atheist generally admits we don't know the answer, but will not believe until evidence is produced. Lacking a belief is not the same as lacking doubt, and it doesn't validate the opposing position. The logical default or null hypothesis for something that lacks evidence is non belief. If I don't believe in unicorns or Santa Clause, I do not become an a-unicornist or an a-santaist. I simply lack belief IN those things. There are millions of possible things that do not exist and that many lack belief in. Instead of being defined by what you don't believe, you should be defined by what you DO believe, as you hinted at the bottom of your post.

Believers believe in god, and because of this, they believe there are people who do not believe in god (an actual god). They called these people many names and pejoratives, and atheist is one of them. If someone says they do not believe in god, that they are an atheist, they are supporting this narrative and pandering to superstitions.

That literally makes no sense at all. If somebody doesn't believe in any type of god, it not pandering to superstitions, it is rejecting the superstitions. If I reject the concept of Santa Clause, it isn't pandering to the kids who believe in it. It is making a logical assessment based on history and lack of evidence to SUPPORT it.

To the believer, it appears there are indeed people who do not believe in God. But if one is willing to admit that there is no god and that the bible is a myth of sorts, then it is only true that he doesn't believe in the myth. In other words, for me at least, there is no god to believe in or not believe in. There is only the evidence, the story, the myth, whatever, that we choose to believe or doubt.

Saying that you don't believe in god, doesn't mean god exists or give justification for other people's beliefs. It means other people CLAIM he exists and you reject their claims. You don't actually reject god. You reject their claims about god since there is no evidence.

Ignorance is the default position. If that's the position you support, I say go for it. But pretty soon we have to give up speaking about nothing and start talking about somethings.

It's not ignorance, it's intellectual honesty when you reject claims that have zero evidence or admit you don't know the answer to things that we are not capable of understanding yet with our currently level of scientific and technological development.

originally posted by: Annee
Old wisdom: Do not talk Politics or Religion.

When is there reason anyone needs to know you are atheist.

I have nothing to prove. My atheism focuses on Separation of Church and State. If you aren't a politician I want on my side - - you don't need to know.

Do you try to push your atheism like some try to push their religion?

Generally this is good advice. I don't care to prove atheism or sing it on the mountain tops, I just reject other people's definitions of god because they don't really hold merit. I really only bring it up if folks are talking about religion(like ATS), I won't go out of my way to bring it up. I'd rather talk about what I DO believe.

originally posted by: Blue Shift

originally posted by: Barcs
I get it if you fear bodily harm, but in reality no true Christian is going to judge you over it or harm you because you don't believe their religion.

The notion that everybody should wear who they are or what they believe on their sleeves is a recent one. I like the idea of myself and others shutting the hell up and keeping our/their beliefs and attitudes nice and private.

Except here, of course, where everything is good and anonymous.

I agree, but it's one thing to remain indifferent and not talk about it. It's another story to hide who you are or pretend you are something you are not to appease intolerant folks. I get that for a long time it was a survival trait, ie when atheists and others were getting tortured and executed for blasphemy. Yeah, unfortunately there are still plenty of places that do this kind of thing, but in religiously tolerant countries there shouldn't be any reason to hide who you are.

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: Gryphon66

Show how a lack of belief actually creates a "presumption that there is a god to not believe in."

Hey, it sounded intelligent and insightful. That's proof enough.

Hmnmm ....

Is there a thread on "Spiritual Atheism"? That might be interesting.

Don't know, but this will give you a general overview...

There's further explanation on the site.
Spiritual Atheism

originally posted by: Barcs

originally posted by: Annee
Old wisdom: Do not talk Politics or Religion.

When is there reason anyone needs to know you are atheist.

I have nothing to prove. My atheism focuses on Separation of Church and State. If you aren't a politician I want on my side - - you don't need to know.

Do you try to push your atheism like some try to push their religion?

Generally this is good advice. I don't care to prove atheism or sing it on the mountain tops, I just reject other people's definitions of god because they don't really hold merit. I really only bring it up if folks are talking about religion(like ATS), I won't go out of my way to bring it up. I'd rather talk about what I DO believe.

Me too.

Always cracks me up when a poster talks about all the negative atheists they have to deal with in real life.

a reply to: Barcs

Not really. The agnostic atheist generally admits we don't know the answer, but will not believe until evidence is produced. Lacking a belief is not the same as lacking doubt, and it doesn't validate the opposing position. The logical default or null hypothesis for something that lacks evidence is non belief. If I don't believe in unicorns or Santa Clause, I do not become an a-unicornist or an a-santaist. I simply lack belief IN those things. There are millions of possible things that do not exist and that many lack belief in. Instead of being defined by what you don't believe, you should be defined by what you DO believe, as you hinted at the bottom of your post.

An agnostic is waiting for evidence that will never come, in the vain superstitious hope that evidence for or against the existence of a deity will be produced. Why don't you suspend your belief that such evidence exists. Are you hoping you’ll turn over a rock one day and you’ll find the inscription “God does not exist. Yours truly, The Universe”? The assumption that there is such evidence is as naive as the assumption there is a god. It’s annoying fence-sitting at best.

That literally makes no sense at all. If somebody doesn't believe in any type of god, it not pandering to superstitions, it is rejecting the superstitions.

By utilizing, embodying and breathing life into their superstitious terms? Why don’t you call yourself a witch? It amounts to the same thing.

Saying that you don't believe in god, doesn't mean god exists or give justification for other people's beliefs. It means other people CLAIM he exists and you reject their claims. You don't actually reject god.

If god doesn’t exist, then you are speaking about literally nothing. That which doesn’t exist is nothing. Of course that isn’t the case, is it? You are speaking about something, what does exist, namely, what god does exists as, which after a brief analysis, amounts to no more than some word in a book.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
An agnostic is waiting for evidence that will never come, in the vain superstitious hope that evidence for or against the existence of a deity will be produced. Why don't you suspend your belief that such evidence exists. Are you hoping you’ll turn over a rock one day and you’ll find the inscription “God does not exist. Yours truly, The Universe”? The assumption that there is such evidence is as naive as the assumption there is a god. It’s annoying fence-sitting at best.

You are viewing agnosticism in the wrong light. You are viewing it as fence sitting, when in reality it is where you don't form an opinion at all. If the evidence for or against a creator doesn't exist, then an agnostic doesn't form an opinion about the creator. We aren't concerned with if the evidence actually exists or not. We are just concerned as to when we are allowed to form an opinion about the topic. Saying, "I don't know," is just an easier way of expressing that.

If god doesn’t exist, then you are speaking about literally nothing. That which doesn’t exist is nothing. Of course that isn’t the case, is it? You are speaking about something, what does exist, namely, what god does exists as, which after a brief analysis, amounts to no more than some word in a book.

And that is the problem, God as a word isn't defined properly or precisely enough to form a valid opinion about it. Naturally the idea of "god" exists as a concept, an idea in humans' brain, but that isn't what people mean when they say that god does or doesn't exist (or even that they don't know if god exists).

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

 But pretty soon we have to give up speaking about nothing and start talking about somethings.

And 2000+ years later.....

originally posted by: Blue Shift

originally posted by: Tearman
And I don't believe any of those definitions, ergo.... I'm a... you know what.

You're a person who doesn't believe in... something... or nothing. The undefinable. In my book, that's not "not believing in God." It isn't anything.

Unless you hold a belief in god/s, regardless of how vague and paradoxical their descriptions are, you're an atheist.

The only way to not be an atheist is to be a theist. It's that simple.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: Barcs

originally posted by: Blue Shift
That's a word to the wise. If you call yourself an atheist you give yourself a label for religious people to latch onto and judge you by. Don't give them a chance to define you by their narrow categories.

But at the same time, nobody should be ashamed of who they are. They shouldn't have to hide who they are or what they believe (or don't believe) to avoid being judged by intolerant extremist religious folk. Be proud of who you are and what you believe, because you know the religious people won't hold that back. I get it if you fear bodily harm, but in reality no true Christian is going to judge you over it or harm you because you don't believe their religion.

Old wisdom: Do not talk Politics or Religion.

When is there reason anyone needs to know you are atheist.

I have nothing to prove. My atheism focuses on Separation of Church and State. If you aren't a politician I want on my side - - you don't need to know.

Do you try to push your atheism like some try to push their religion?

so atheists need to stay in the closet like previously gay people did.

originally posted by: HorusChrist

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: Barcs

originally posted by: Blue Shift
That's a word to the wise. If you call yourself an atheist you give yourself a label for religious people to latch onto and judge you by. Don't give them a chance to define you by their narrow categories.

But at the same time, nobody should be ashamed of who they are. They shouldn't have to hide who they are or what they believe (or don't believe) to avoid being judged by intolerant extremist religious folk. Be proud of who you are and what you believe, because you know the religious people won't hold that back. I get it if you fear bodily harm, but in reality no true Christian is going to judge you over it or harm you because you don't believe their religion.

Old wisdom: Do not talk Politics or Religion.

When is there reason anyone needs to know you are atheist.

I have nothing to prove. My atheism focuses on Separation of Church and State. If you aren't a politician I want on my side - - you don't need to know.

Do you try to push your atheism like some try to push their religion?

so atheists need to stay in the closet like previously gay people did.

Actually, NO. That is not what I'm saying.

I was saying in general "chit chat" as you go through the day, work, friends, kid's friends parents, etc - - - it is not a subject that needs to be brought up anymore then religion does.

Activism I fully support. Organizing groups for purpose of increasing a secular society I support.

I have brought up lack of belief in conversation. It is surprising how angry believers get. I have no need to bring out negative reactions in people. I have nothing to prove.

If I have reason to bring it up, I do.