Proof a Living Wage is Possible

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: Isurrender73

Why do you want to promote class warfare? Why do you care if people are successful?

As for the constitutional aspect?

The Constitution limits government, socialism expands it.

I don't measure success by money.

And I care because these are people that work hard to survive and can only do so by the gov tit.

They work full time, they should be able to stand on their own 2 feet.

I wonder why everyone in this thread is so afraid to even acknowledge the points made against them?

Wall Street creates jobs for people outside of Wall Street. Disagree? Please explain.

Billionaires create jobs. Name one billionaire who does not.

Education and training allow one to move upwards into jobs that DO exist. It happens every single day, thousands and thousands of times.

My opinion is that everyone wants something for nothing, and they're driven by jealousy. And greed.

Most of the rich aren't greedy. The rich give exponentially more to charity and similar programs than you and your 20 closest friends ever will, combined.

Also...your argument about demand? Give me a break. You claim demand creates jobs and wealth doesn't. Did it ever occur to you that it takes wealth to create the business to meet the demand? Or to run it intelligently? Or that many businesses run at a loss for a few years until things take off? And that often requires a wealthy investor to keep it afloat?

Pull your head out of the sand.

a reply to: Drinking

You're right. The system does work for me. I am successful. Raising the minimum wage, changing the system, would hurt me. Me and millions of others who do make a good living. But everyone gets a trophy, right? Equal outcome for everyone, right?

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: Drinking

You're right. The system does work for me. I am successful. Raising the minimum wage, changing the system, would hurt me. Me and millions of others who do make a good living. But everyone gets a trophy, right? Equal outcome for everyone, right?

Exactly this. If I make more than someone else that makes me a bad person, right?

Everyone whines that there is no way to move up, or there are no jobs to move up to. Bull. I did it. Millions of others have done it and still do it.

All this is is a money grab by the lazy people who don't want to work. They think "he has more than he needs, so he should just give it to me". Screw that. Work for it. Earn it. Quit demanding things you aren't entitled to.

The greed of some of these people infuriates me. Whining about money like you're owed something...You're not owed anything. No one owes you jack, and certainly not the billionaires of the world. You've done nothing to even try to earn it.

I have compassion for people who are legitimately poor. I see homeless people doing everything they can to get by and it crushes me. But when I see people that don't even try....it just makes me angry. You don't deserve a handout. You barely deserve a hand up. And you don't even want a hand up. You just want to pull everyone else down to wallow in filth with you and wail about how Wall Street has beat you down. You don't even understand how Wall Street works. You don't know how economies work. All you are is greedy.

a reply to: stolencar18

Life isn't nice, life isn't even fair. There are always going to be winners and losers. But if you are losing a game, you don't change the rules so you can win. All I see is people trying to game the system.

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: stolencar18

Life isn't nice, life isn't even fair. There are always going to be winners and losers. But if you are losing a game, you don't change the rules so you can win. All I see is people trying to game the system.

I agree with you fully. That is what I see happening. Millions and millions of people are successfully employed and succeeding in the world. They worked hard to get an education or learn a skill and searched for a job that fit them. Some find entry level jobs and work their way upwards.

Then you have the people who sit at the bottom and look up with nothing more than envy in their eyes. They can't see all the open doors around them. They won't look for a better path. They just want to pull you back down and make you suffer.

Selfishness. Greed. Laziness.

Words that people use to describe the rich or even moderately successful. I use them to describe some of the people in this thread. Too selfish to be happy for anyone else. Too lazy to try to earn it themselves. Too greedy to to accept that perhaps someone else worked harder and earned more than them.

They work full time, they should be able to stand on their own 2 feet.

Success can't be measured by hours worked either.

I don't believe that anyone is stuck in a 40 hour McJob unless they choose to be. There are always ways up.

Using your logic, if I work 40 hours at my job and make X amount, that means everyone else that works the same hours should earn the same? Where's the incentive to better yourself then? Where's the motivation to try to move up in the world?

a reply to: stolencar18

If minimum wage goes to 15 then the people currently making 15 will go to 20, then we'll have to bump the people making 20 to 25, and bump the people making 25 to 30 then bump the people making 30 to 35 then bump the people making 35 to 40 and then bump the people making 40 to 50 . . . . . . . .

And then the people making 15 will want 20. . . . .

a reply to: DBCowboy

Exactly. Not to mention the increased costs tied to every single product and service to accommodate the increased wages...

originally posted by: stolencar18
I wonder why everyone in this thread is so afraid to even acknowledge the points made against them?

Wall Street creates jobs for people outside of Wall Street. Disagree? Please explain.

Billionaires create jobs. Name one billionaire who does not.

Education and training allow one to move upwards into jobs that DO exist. It happens every single day, thousands and thousands of times.

My opinion is that everyone wants something for nothing, and they're driven by jealousy. And greed.

Most of the rich aren't greedy. The rich give exponentially more to charity and similar programs than you and your 20 closest friends ever will, combined.

Also...your argument about demand? Give me a break. You claim demand creates jobs and wealth doesn't. Did it ever occur to you that it takes wealth to create the business to meet the demand? Or to run it intelligently? Or that many businesses run at a loss for a few years until things take off? And that often requires a wealthy investor to keep it afloat?

Pull your head out of the sand.

Actually I answered the questions about billionaires and massive income inequality on page 1 of this thread, in a reply to Ketsko.

The reply was quoted from an outside source, and you can find many articles that show empirical evidence that massive income disparity is bad for society in many ways, including economic growth.

www.abovetopsecret.com...



"If American's want to live the American Dream they should move to Denmark". Richard Wilkinson

originally posted by: stolencar18

They work full time, they should be able to stand on their own 2 feet.

Success can't be measured by hours worked either.

I don't believe that anyone is stuck in a 40 hour McJob unless they choose to be. There are always ways up.

Using your logic, if I work 40 hours at my job and make X amount, that means everyone else that works the same hours should earn the same? Where's the incentive to better yourself then? Where's the motivation to try to move up in the world?

As I started earlier in this thread. There are at least 30 Million people Unemployed or working who make minimum wage or less.

Who is going to create 30 Million middle class jobs for these people?

You are completely ignoring reality, simply because you found a way to be successful. I am happy for you that you have the mental aptitude to succeed. What about the other 30 Million Americans? Do they matter?

Discussing how wages going up effects the cost of everything has already been discussed. I am not asking for a miracle, I am asking for us to return to what the minimum wage provided Americans 20 to 30 years ago.

If a low income worker could support his family 30 years ago, why can't he do it today? Our GDP has doubled and outpaced inflation. Why didn't the employees wages maintain the same buying power?

The answer is the extraordinary wealth at the top, which is why we need to put a cap on wealth.

I have provided sources and a TED conference video that prove massive income inequality is bad for every sector of society.

You have provided only your opinion.

a reply to: Isurrender73

Do you believe that your sources tell the whole story, the accurate story, and every side of the story? I also firmly believe that you're looking at the past with rose colored glasses. I agree that income has not kept up with inflation but I don't agree that handing over one persons income to another is the solution.

Let's look at this another way...

If there were more wealthy people (let's say people who earn 500K or greater annually for this example) and they opened more businesses would that create more jobs? Or they already own/manage a business and they expand, would that create jobs?

To your point, if you take from the rich (using any method) and hand it out to those 30 million people, how does that make anything better? Will that give them jobs? What if the wealthy decided they have enough money, closed down the shop, and retired? Wouldn't that lead to a loss in jobs? Why would they keep things running as they are now if it isn't profitable anymore?

People need jobs - not handouts. We need more opportunities. We don't need to artificially increase income levels. Giving the poorest people a flat 50k a year (example) doesn't make them middle class. It makes 50k a year the new poverty line. An increase like that at the bottom will channel all the way up. The guy making 50k now will make 70k and so on. And even if that didn't happen and people suddenly started to even out at the 50k mark it would lead to a reduction of skilled workers to do the harder jobs which would kill the economy. If no one has an incentive to learn something more advanced and do a harder job to earn more money why would they waste their time? No sense being an engineer when being a burger flipper pays the same.

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: Drinking

You're right. The system does work for me. I am successful. Raising the minimum wage, changing the system, would hurt me. Me and millions of others who do make a good living. But everyone gets a trophy, right? Equal outcome for everyone, right?

No!!!

That is not my stance at all

Have you read this thread?

I am against socialism period.

Stated many times in fact in this thread.

There are rich and poor for various reasons, there always will be.

But when a country goes from 2/3 not in poverty to 2/3 in poverty in one generation....

Somthing needs to change.

And it is only getting worse by the day.

I don't claim to have the answers, I just point out the obvious.

A man working full-time in the richest nation on earth should be able to have a home car food.

This is not reality, at minimum wage they can buy a place but not a car or food, or they can get a car and food but not a place.

This is retarded.

You act like anyone can get a great job, they ate just lazy if they don't.

Intelligence reality there are only X good jobs.

Getting a degree doesn't make X+1 jobs.

There are still X jobs.

Right now 2/3 of us are not doing well.

Education etc will not change that.

Because 2/3 of jobs sick.

No matter how much training or education etc

2/3 of American jobs pay crap.

Individually sure.

Societetely no.

If every American right now got a PHD


2/3 would make minimum wage, because that is the jobs factor.

2/3 of all jobs pay crap period.

A job won't magically open up because you have a degree.

a reply to: Drinking

In many cases yes, a job will be created because you got an in-demand education. Many large companies hire up as many trained people as they can to drive growth.

Also...2/3 of the country is NOT in poverty. Let's be honest.

Finally, people are not ENTITLED to a car or certain type of home or food.

Food and shelter are basic rights, but that doesn't mean steak and lobster, or even pork and beans. It means food. Plain, basic food is a right. And shelter? That doesn't mean a two bedroom apartment. Or a one bedroom. And a car? Nope. Never. Nada. You can walk. Billions of people walk billions of miles.

a reply to: Drinking

True. In an ideal economy, people with PhD's would still be flipping burgers though. We all can't have the ideal job at the ideal salary. In life there are winners and losers. Some will just end up losing. Sorry to be blunt, but not everyone can be a winner. That's why there are safety nets in society, to aid those who didn't or couldn't make it. But when society makes the safety net preferable to working, then we have a problem.

originally posted by: nwtrucker
a reply to: Semicollegiate

Actually, I agree with Isurrender73 on that point.

The arbitrary value of gold was fixed at 35 dollars an ounce for a while.(In the day)

As the paper money market has been manipulated-they don't even "print" the money they create, these days, just create it and credit it into accounts, usually when cashing T-Bills....

, they can and would manipulate the value of gold as well.

A trifle harder, but in essence, not a fix.

There are a number of countries without, 'Feds' or Central Banking systems, they all do the same thing. it's the power not the mechanism that's abused.

MOney is like a yardstick. It measures how much things cost or how much things are wanted.

Gold is has a more or less fixed amount. Every dollar backed by gold, in a one to one match with some amount of gold, has the same value no matter what it is exchanged for.

Fiat money is like a yardstick that gets smaller or bigger over time.

The prices of things in a fixed money system communicate information about scarcity and relative worth. If something is running out, then the price will tell everybody sooner and more honestly than any study or agency.

An added bonus of money with fixed value is that it will be worth more over time. Production costs decrease with new manufacturing technology and innovation. Also the more stuff there is in the world, with the amount of money staying the same, the less expensive everything will be. Saving sound money under the mattress returns a profit for anybody and everybody.

As dollars become worth more, the denominations can go as small as a single atom gold. Over time the currency denominations will get smaller. If we had stayed on the gold standard, right now we would have one cent paper bills and new cars would still cost hundreds instead of tens of thousands of dollars.

Inflation is where all of the "livable wages" went. In a fixed money system, like in the 1800's, wages stayed about the same, but the price of everything went down.

All of the bank panics blamed on the gold standard were because of fractional reserve banking. The banks loaned out money that nobody had, and so every so often the banks couldn't pay what the banks owed.

originally posted by: Semicollegiate

originally posted by: nwtrucker
a reply to: Semicollegiate

Actually, I agree with Isurrender73 on that point.

The arbitrary value of gold was fixed at 35 dollars an ounce for a while.(In the day)

As the paper money market has been manipulated-they don't even "print" the money they create, these days, just create it and credit it into accounts, usually when cashing T-Bills....

, they can and would manipulate the value of gold as well.

A trifle harder, but in essence, not a fix.

There are a number of countries without, 'Feds' or Central Banking systems, they all do the same thing. it's the power not the mechanism that's abused.

MOney is like a yardstick. It measures how much things cost or how much things are wanted.

Gold is has a more or less fixed amount. Every dollar backed by gold, in a one to one match with some amount of gold, has the same value no matter what it is exchanged for.

Fiat money is like a yardstick that gets smaller or bigger over time.

The prices of things in a fixed money system communicate information about scarcity and relative worth. If something is running out, then the price will tell everybody sooner and more honestly than any study or agency.

An added bonus of money with fixed value is that it will be worth more over time. Production costs decrease with new manufacturing technology and innovation. Also the more stuff there is in the world, with the amount of money staying the same, the less expensive everything will be. Saving sound money under the mattress returns a profit for anybody and everybody.

As dollars become worth more, the denominations can go as small as a single atom gold. Over time the currency denominations will get smaller. If we had stayed on the gold standard, right now we would have one cent paper bills and new cars would still cost hundreds instead of tens of thousands of dollars.

Inflation is where all of the "livable wages" went. In a fixed money system, like in the 1800's, wages stayed about the same, but the price of everything went down.

All of the bank panics blamed on the gold standard were because of fractional reserve banking. The banks loaned out money that nobody had, and so every so often the banks couldn't pay what the banks owed.

No argument from me on your points.

It is more complicated than that, however. The need for fiats/script won't go away and that's an easy route for manipulation. Gold, in and of it's self, isn't as valuable as say oil reserves or resources critical to an economy/civilization.

Bottom line, gold isn't a panacea.(unless we return to a gold-silver coin system that by-passes script.)

One only needs to see the perception of say the Canadian dollar dropping based on a lowered value/demand on it's oil reserves and the perceived value increase in the U.S. dollar value based on it's increase in accessible oil reserves despite over issuing it's fiat.

Having gold as a 'standard' in both countries may have mitigated the fluctuation, but other influences would still factored in.

I have no idea what the solution is. Far beyond my ken....LOL. A little dose of honesty might help...

a reply to: nwtrucker

The need for fiats/script won't go away and that's an easy route for manipulation. Gold, in and of it's self, isn't as valuable as say oil reserves or resources critical to an economy/civilization.

I had to think about the value of gold on another thread. I was saying gold had value in and of itself.

However, that is not the reason gold is good money. Gold is good money because it can't be counterfeited. Since gold, or any collection of metals and oil and whatnot are physical things, they limit government debt and so limit government.

I like the thought of a copper dollar. The weight of copper worth a dollar is about the size of a dollar nowadays.

Money is supposed to represent surplus stuff that can be traded, after all of a persons needs are met or accounted for..