Proof a Living Wage is Possible

originally posted by: Edumakated
a reply to: Isurrender73

The fallacy with your "math" is that you assume the economic pie is fixed. You also ignore that these high earners in all likelihood have created exponentially more wealth than the $20 million that they are earning. The $20 million in earnings could be because someone sold a business that they spent 20 years building. They may have lucked out an been an early employee at a company and decided to sell some of their shares for retirement. They may be athletes. They could be actors.

At the end of the day, why is it any business of yours what someone else makes? If you think you don't make enough, step up your game.

This...a hundred times this.

The "anti-rich" crowd always whines about the rich people stamping them down - bs. You wouldn't have a job if it wasn't for them. You can argue that all you want but poor people don't hire people.

My opinion is that people who share the sentiments of the OP are greedy and jealous. Everyone wants something for nothing. Everyone thinks that making fries or flipping burgers should pay 40K a year. No it shouldn't. If you want to earn more step up and earn it.

I sympathize with those who are less fortunate, I really do, but I don't think handouts or crazy wage caps are the solution.

Finally, most of the people affected by the wage cap will take their money and leave anyways. Then how well off are you? Do we drop the wage cap to $500k until those people leave? Then 250K? How low can we go?

a reply to: stolencar18

So 894 people employ everyone in the US?

Over 90% of all businesses in the US are ran by small businesses whose owners make far less then 20 Million.

And the few jobs the 894 people create can be easily replaced as the demand for the goods would not change, so a small business owner would open shop where the billionaire closed shop.

And Athletes and Entertainers do not provide enough to this world to justify even the 20 Million cap that they could still make. And very few of them actually make that much to begin with. I would prefer the money in Entertainment be distributed to those behind the screens who make the entertainment industry possible.

Have you ever worked fast food 40 hours a week?

I am not anti-rich. I am anti-exploitation of the labor force.

The philosophy of Supply and Demand suggests if one person closes shop while their is still a demand someone else will open shop.

Why do you care if anyone leaves? They are already hoarding 2.1 Trillion overseas which is devastating to the supply and demand model. There are plenty of capable people willing to be merchants, bankers and CEOs.

originally posted by: Isurrender73
a reply to: stolencar18

So 894 people employ everyone in the US?

Over 90% of all businesses in the US are ran by small businesses whose owners make far less then 20 Million.

And the few jobs the 894 people create can be easily replaced as the demand for the goods would not change, so a small business owner would open shop where the billionaire closed shop.

And Athletes and Entertainers do not provide enough to this world to justify even the 20 Million cap that they could still make. And very few of them actually make that much to begin with. I would prefer the money in Entertainment be distributed to those behind the screens who make the entertainment industry possible.

Have you ever worked fast food 40 hours a week?

I am not anti-rich. I am anti-exploitation of the labor force.

The philosophy of Supply and demand says if one person closes shop while their is still a demand someone else will open shop. Why do you car if anyone leaves. There are plenty of capable people willing to be merchants, bankers and CEOs.

I've worked fast food. I was paid a few cents above minimum wage. I wasn't exploited. I was paid appropriately for the skill level required to put salt on fries and ketchup on a bun. I didn't deserve the same wage as a low level accountant, or a banker, or a tradesperson. I deserved a few cents above minimum wage.

I often wonder if people in the west really understand exploitation. Minimum wage jobs are not exploitation.

originally posted by: Isurrender73
a reply to: stolencar18

So 894 people employ everyone in the US?

Over 90% of all businesses in the US are ran by small businesses whose owners make far less then 20 Million.

And the few jobs the 894 people create can be easily replaced as the demand for the goods would not change, so a small business owner would open shop where the billionaire closed shop.

And Athletes and Entertainers do not provide enough to this world to justify even the 20 Million cap that they could still make. And very few of them actually make that much to begin with. I would prefer the money in Entertainment be distributed to those behind the screens who make the entertainment industry possible.

Have you ever worked fast food 40 hours a week?

I am not anti-rich. I am anti-exploitation of the labor force.

The philosophy of Supply and Demand suggests if one person closes shop while their is still a demand someone else will open shop.

Why do you care if anyone leaves? They are already hoarding 2.1 Trillion overseas which is devastating to the supply and demand model. There are plenty of capable people willing to be merchants, bankers and CEOs.

I mean this in the most polite way possible. You are freaking clueless as to how basic economics works.

Again, those 894 people have created exponentially more wealth for the masses than themselves. Bill Gates is worth what $75 billion? I just did a quick search. Bill Gates efforts to start and grow Microsoft and created three billionaires and an estimated 12,000 millionaires just among Microsoft employees. This does not even include the tens of thousands of employees who make six figure incomes. Then you factor in all the side industries and businesses that have developed because of Microsoft.

Bill Gates grew the pie. This is what you don't understand. He created the demand for his product and became immensely wealthy as a result. Do you think any of the 12,000 employee millionaires or tens of thousand of other millionaires who invested in MS give a damn about that Bill Gates is worth $75 billion?

Does he need $75 billion? No, he does not. Which is why a lot of these people who become immensely wealthy give away a lot of their fortunes. Just because they may not necessarily advertise their generosity, does not mean it does not happen.

Look around any major city - universities, schools, arts & culture, museums, parks, homeless shelters, libraries, etc all have benefactors where people VOLUNTARILY donate their money and time to support. Just because they don't spend / give their money away in a fashion that you may like, does not mean they are not doing good with their money.

The last thing we need is a government bureaucracy capping wages and distorting markets. We've seen what happens already with how we screwed up our healthcare in the US. It would disincentive innovation and investment. The people that it would hurt are those at the bottom.

a reply to: Isurrender73

Who said do nothing?

The nation you say that has been destroyed over the last 100 years has given me and mine a good life.

I will not contribute to those that would throw that away under some idyllic and myopic self-created...and enforced alternative.

You want change? Go out and do volunteer work in your community. That's how it was done in the past. Not reliance on a gov't to create a solution for the challenges of life and livingness.

You are delusional if you think your fantasy is in any way achievable when dealing with creatures as capable of the acts that humanity is.

Lord! A minimum wage of 35k per year..

If you think we have illegal immigration now?.... That's just one of a plethora of consequences you glibly ignore.

One more time. Life is tough. You cannot legislate affluence. All gov't does is enforce. A little enforcement goes a lot further than a lot of enforcement.

Keep your hobby-horse idea fueled and you will have a very frustrating and unhappy life.

I'm done with this thread. Thanks for your responses and comments.

originally posted by: stolencar18

I've worked fast food. I was paid a few cents above minimum wage. I wasn't exploited. I was paid appropriately for the skill level required to put salt on fries and ketchup on a bun. I didn't deserve the same wage as a low level accountant, or a banker, or a tradesperson. I deserved a few cents above minimum wage.

I often wonder if people in the west really understand exploitation. Minimum wage jobs are not exploitation.

I disagree with you on minimum wage jobs not being exploitation. Anyone working 40 hours a week should be able to afford a 2 bedroom apartment and an automobile. Which is impossible in all 50 states.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

You are correct the fast food employees don't deserve as much as an accountant or skilled tradesperson.

If you look at my example in the OP you will see I suggested only 25% of the workforce, which accounts for unskilled labor would be at minimum wage.

The minimum wage workers would likely never be able to own anything past a small condo. While skilled laborers would make enough to own property.

The problem is many skilled laborers, which used to be the middle class, still don't make enough to own a home in today's economy.

Why is technology making us more productive and generating more wealth then ever while the middle and lower classes continue to see their standard of living dwindle?

"There is something profoundly wrong when 58 percent of all new income since the Wall Street crash has gone to the top one percent."

"There is something profoundly wrong when the top one-tenth of one percent owns almost as much wealth as the bottom 90 percent."

"America now has more wealth and income inequality than any major developed country on earth, and the gap between the very rich and everyone else is wider than at any time since the 1920s." - Bernie Sanders

originally posted by: Isurrender73

originally posted by: stolencar18

I've worked fast food. I was paid a few cents above minimum wage. I wasn't exploited. I was paid appropriately for the skill level required to put salt on fries and ketchup on a bun. I didn't deserve the same wage as a low level accountant, or a banker, or a tradesperson. I deserved a few cents above minimum wage.

I often wonder if people in the west really understand exploitation. Minimum wage jobs are not exploitation.

I disagree with you on minimum wage jobs not being exploitation. Anyone working 40 hours a week should be able to afford a 2 bedroom apartment and an automobile. Which is impossible in all 50 states.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

You are correct the fast food employees don't deserve as much as an accountant or skilled tradesperson.

If you look at my example in the OP you will see I suggested only 25% of the workforce, which accounts for unskilled labor would be at minimum wage.

The minimum wage workers would likely never be able to own anything past a small condo. While skilled laborers would make enough to own property.

The problem is many skilled laborers, which used to be the middle class, still don't make enough to own a home in today's economy.

Why is technology making us more productive and generating more wealth then ever while the middle and lower classes continue to see their standard of living dwindle?

"There is something profoundly wrong when 58 percent of all new income since the Wall Street crash has gone to the top one percent."

"There is something profoundly wrong when the top one-tenth of one percent owns almost as much wealth as the bottom 90 percent."

"America now has more wealth and income inequality than any major developed country on earth, and the gap between the very rich and everyone else is wider than at any time since the 1920s." - Bernie Sanders



Minimum wage is not supposed to be a career. God forbid people sacrifice and move up before they can buy a 2 bedroom apartment / car. Jeez...

a reply to: Edumakated

I mean this in the politest way possible. You are wrong.

I could have about 100 small business owners tell you that not only do I understand basic economics, I understand it at a level that many of those small business owners call genius.

I understand how the current economic structure works. The rich get richer by swapping paid labor for cheaper technology. Unemployment grows, the middle class shrinks and we are quickly turning into a welfare nation with over 600,000 homeless people who have simply given up. And 21 million unemployed who are still trying to hang on.

The matrix is broken, but it works for you so you don't want to change it.

a reply to: Edumakated

Between retail, fast food and unemployment the country would need to create 30 Million middle class jobs to ensure everyone can make a living wage.

How do you suggest we create 30 Million middle class jobs?

Wake up to reality, education and hard work doesn't create 30 Million middle class jobs. Some people make minimum wage because their are no other opportunities for them.

originally posted by: Isurrender73
a reply to: Edumakated

Between retail, fast food and unemployment the country would need to create 30 Million middle class jobs to ensure everyone can make a living wage.

How do you suggest we create 30 Million middle class jobs?

Wake up to reality, education and hard work doesn't create 30 Million middle class jobs. Some people make minimum wage because their are no other opportunities for them.

There is no such thing as a "living wage". Your entire premise is a bunch of bullsnip to start.

However, if I were a dictator for a day and tasked with improving the economy for all, I'd do the following. Wage caps are certainly not a solution though.

1) Close the borders. There is absolutely no need for us to be importing cheap unskilled labor from south of the border when we have plenty of people here looking for jobs. All this does is further depress wages and makes it difficult for the least skilled to even get a start.

2) Close the borders. We need to seriously curtail h1-bs. It is a myth that we don't have enough stem workers here in the states. I do agree that companies are importing cheap indian labor to fill tech roles instead of paying market rates for american workers.

3) Revamp tax code. Go with a flat 10% tax rate for corporations. Simple tax. Get rid of crazy accounting rules and other loopholes. We need to make it so all companies want to relocate to America. I'd put the corporate tax lawyers out of work.

4) Flat tax on income. I'd do something like 0-1% for the poorest and maybe 10% for the wealthiest. No loop holes and deductions. All income treated the same, but everyone needs to pay something so they understand the effects of government spending. You can't have half the population voting themselves the other half's money.

5) Incentive companies for keeping their manufacturing base in America


I got more but I need to get back to work and earn my 1%er living...

originally posted by: Isurrender73
a reply to: Edumakated

Between retail, fast food and unemployment the country would need to create 30 Million middle class jobs to ensure everyone can make a living wage.

How do you suggest we create 30 Million middle class jobs?

Wake up to reality, education and hard work doesn't create 30 Million middle class jobs. Some people make minimum wage because their are no other opportunities for them.

Many people make min wage because they aren't qualified for something better. They may be intelligent and courteous and respectful but that doesn't make them qualified. People need to learn skills to move up - it shouldn't just be handed down.

originally posted by: Isurrender73
I disagree with you on minimum wage jobs not being exploitation. Anyone working 40 hours a week should be able to afford a 2 bedroom apartment and an automobile.

Let's just imagine this happened...
What kind of 2 bedroom apartment? What amenities? In what area? How many square feet? What kind of view? What kind of car? How much horsepower? How many doors? How old?

If you dictate that X job should grant X worker the ability to afford X level of car and housing how long until X worker feels it's unfair that Y worker across the street has Y level of apartment and car?

You can't legislate wealth or class.

originally posted by: stolencar18

originally posted by: Isurrender73
a reply to: Edumakated

Between retail, fast food and unemployment the country would need to create 30 Million middle class jobs to ensure everyone can make a living wage.

How do you suggest we create 30 Million middle class jobs?

Wake up to reality, education and hard work doesn't create 30 Million middle class jobs. Some people make minimum wage because their are no other opportunities for them.

Many people make min wage because they aren't qualified for something better. They may be intelligent and courteous and respectful but that doesn't make them qualified. People need to learn skills to move up - it shouldn't just be handed down.

And move up into where?

All the middle class jobs that don't exist?

All they can do is undercut someone above them, this does nothing but move a poor person to middle class, and a middle class person to poor.

originally posted by: Drinking

originally posted by: stolencar18

originally posted by: Isurrender73
a reply to: Edumakated

Between retail, fast food and unemployment the country would need to create 30 Million middle class jobs to ensure everyone can make a living wage.

How do you suggest we create 30 Million middle class jobs?

Wake up to reality, education and hard work doesn't create 30 Million middle class jobs. Some people make minimum wage because their are no other opportunities for them.

Many people make min wage because they aren't qualified for something better. They may be intelligent and courteous and respectful but that doesn't make them qualified. People need to learn skills to move up - it shouldn't just be handed down.

And move up into where?

All the middle class jobs that don't exist?

All they can do is undercut someone above them, this does nothing but move a poor person to middle class, and a middle class person to poor.

In some cases that middle class person may deserve a downward shift, if his work habits dictate as much.

Having said that, a lack of jobs doesn't mean the whole system should come down. The solution is to create more jobs (we'll skip the "how to" part of that discussion...). Wealth DOES create more jobs. That's what we need.

a reply to: stolencar18

If there are only 25% of jobs paying above poverty line wages, no matter how much skill or training is done.

No more than 25% can ever be above poverty level.

How do you not understand this simple obvious fact?

This is the problem, there aren't enough good jobs period.

So most workers despite skill training ability etc, have to be in poverty period, end of discussion.

This is idiotic, it is destroying our country, and you are championing the doom of your descendants.

Every year for the last 30-40 years, American living standards have fallen for all but a fraction of workers.

Because their pay has remained flat while inflation ate away at it.

The problem is going to resolve itself one way or another.

By fixing the problem, we can avoid all the bad things that are going to start happening soon if we don't.

People won't starve, they will steal and kill to feed them an theirs if they have to.

It is only a decade away at best when most American workers won't even be able to make it with welfare, because there is only so much housing help, and rents are already too high for most of the workforce.

So they will work, sell their foodstamps, use all their pay and welfare to have a place, and steal your eat.

Or some combination there of.

originally posted by: stolencar18

originally posted by: Drinking

originally posted by: stolencar18

originally posted by: Isurrender73
a reply to: Edumakated

Between retail, fast food and unemployment the country would need to create 30 Million middle class jobs to ensure everyone can make a living wage.

How do you suggest we create 30 Million middle class jobs?

Wake up to reality, education and hard work doesn't create 30 Million middle class jobs. Some people make minimum wage because their are no other opportunities for them.

Many people make min wage because they aren't qualified for something better. They may be intelligent and courteous and respectful but that doesn't make them qualified. People need to learn skills to move up - it shouldn't just be handed down.

And move up into where?

All the middle class jobs that don't exist?

All they can do is undercut someone above them, this does nothing but move a poor person to middle class, and a middle class person to poor.

In some cases that middle class person may deserve a downward shift, if his work habits dictate as much.

Having said that, a lack of jobs doesn't mean the whole system should come down. The solution is to create more jobs (we'll skip the "how to" part of that discussion...). Wealth DOES create more jobs. That's what we need.

Disposable income, which most workers don't have anymore, creates demand.

Which creates jobs, wealth has never created a single job period, not one ever.

Demand created every job mankind has ever created, wealth is a byproduct of demand and jobs.

Not its cause.

a reply to: Drinking

Can you please stop the mindless speculation?
"it's only a decade away..."
"they'll sell their foodstamps..."
"welfare won't work..."
"75% of jobs are below the poverty line..."

All BS.

Besides...even if the above were true, raising the minimum income to those people won't work. Costs will go up equally or perhaps more quickly, so they'll remain in mostly the same position.

originally posted by: Drinking

originally posted by: stolencar18

originally posted by: Drinking

originally posted by: stolencar18

originally posted by: Isurrender73
a reply to: Edumakated

Between retail, fast food and unemployment the country would need to create 30 Million middle class jobs to ensure everyone can make a living wage.

How do you suggest we create 30 Million middle class jobs?

Wake up to reality, education and hard work doesn't create 30 Million middle class jobs. Some people make minimum wage because their are no other opportunities for them.

Many people make min wage because they aren't qualified for something better. They may be intelligent and courteous and respectful but that doesn't make them qualified. People need to learn skills to move up - it shouldn't just be handed down.

And move up into where?

All the middle class jobs that don't exist?

All they can do is undercut someone above them, this does nothing but move a poor person to middle class, and a middle class person to poor.

In some cases that middle class person may deserve a downward shift, if his work habits dictate as much.

Having said that, a lack of jobs doesn't mean the whole system should come down. The solution is to create more jobs (we'll skip the "how to" part of that discussion...). Wealth DOES create more jobs. That's what we need.

Disposable income, which most workers don't have anymore, creates demand.

Which creates jobs, wealth has never created a single job period, not one ever.

Demand created every job mankind has ever created, wealth is a byproduct of demand and jobs.

Not its cause.

Wealth creates jobs. It has a million times over and will continue to do so.

Conversely, a lack of wealth reduces available jobs, even if demand persists. No one is going to make X product that is in high demand unless they can make a profit from it.

originally posted by: stolencar18

originally posted by: Drinking

originally posted by: stolencar18

originally posted by: Drinking

originally posted by: stolencar18

originally posted by: Isurrender73
a reply to: Edumakated

Between retail, fast food and unemployment the country would need to create 30 Million middle class jobs to ensure everyone can make a living wage.

How do you suggest we create 30 Million middle class jobs?

Wake up to reality, education and hard work doesn't create 30 Million middle class jobs. Some people make minimum wage because their are no other opportunities for them.

Many people make min wage because they aren't qualified for something better. They may be intelligent and courteous and respectful but that doesn't make them qualified. People need to learn skills to move up - it shouldn't just be handed down.

And move up into where?

All the middle class jobs that don't exist?

All they can do is undercut someone above them, this does nothing but move a poor person to middle class, and a middle class person to poor.

In some cases that middle class person may deserve a downward shift, if his work habits dictate as much.

Having said that, a lack of jobs doesn't mean the whole system should come down. The solution is to create more jobs (we'll skip the "how to" part of that discussion...). Wealth DOES create more jobs. That's what we need.

Disposable income, which most workers don't have anymore, creates demand.

Which creates jobs, wealth has never created a single job period, not one ever.

Demand created every job mankind has ever created, wealth is a byproduct of demand and jobs.

Not its cause.

Wealth creates jobs. It has a million times over and will continue to do so.

Conversely, a lack of wealth reduces available jobs, even if demand persists. No one is going to make X product that is in high demand unless they can make a profit from it.

You pretend like businesses didn't exist just fine with a much less profit margin than they do today. You know back when the wealth gap was much less. It's not profit it's greed.

originally posted by: stolencar18
a reply to: Drinking

Can you please stop the mindless speculation?
"it's only a decade away..."
"they'll sell their foodstamps..."
"welfare won't work..."
"75% of jobs are below the poverty line..."

All BS.

Besides...even if the above were true, raising the minimum income to those people won't work. Costs will go up equally or perhaps more quickly, so they'll remain in mostly the same position.

I agree raising the minimum wage is not the answer.

I have already stated several times, raising the minimum wage only makes more poor people.

It doesn't raise me making $7.50 an hour up to $15 and out of poverty.

It brings you making $15 an hour down to poverty.