Proof a Living Wage is Possible

originally posted by: Metallicus

originally posted by: Isurrender73

originally posted by: Metallicus
Even if a living wage is possible...businesses are under no obligation to pay you more than you are willing to accept. I am not saying I agree that a living wage is possible, but even if it is I see no reason for those involved in some types of business to pay unskilled workers more than the work they perform is worth.

What value is a business to society if it's employees need welfare to survive? All your doing is shifting the responsibility of the wealthy to the middle class. Which is the exact system we have today.

Business owners are not all 'wealthy' and individuals are responsibility for their own situation and career choices. Life becomes much easier when you learn to be proactive and take charge of the issues that confront you in life.

Business owners can raise prices to pay employees appropriately.

I am glad that your life has worked out well for you, and I honestly hope you never face any real financial hardships. You really don't understand those whose mental aptitude is inferior to yours.

Nor do you seem to understand the downfalls of an absolute elitist mentality. There are those who still believe the inferior are no better then slaves, and your ideology fuels their greed.

WOOO HOOO I JUST WON THE LOTTO!! Now I have aenough for a down payment on a new truck!!!

I cant do it so gimmie yours!!

a reply to: ketsuko

Did they teach you how the Federal Reserve prints money and creates digital money out of thin air and loans it back to you with interest?

If it was taught in your economics class you can be assured you were taught the values of Elitism.

No thank you. I will believe in the vision of supply and demand that is delivered through a small business model. Which is the model that made this country the greatest economy in the world.

Globalization, unlimited corporate growth and the hoarding of money by those who have too much to spend are what are destroying this country.

originally posted by: Isurrender73
a reply to: Semicollegiate

I am going to respond to you just once. I am fully aware of your philosophy and know it's impossible to show you the economic flaws.

The flaws are all yours. 95% inflation, the Great Depression, the Banker Bailout, and industry fleeing to China and Asia, are all yours.

How do you form a military in your system that can defend itself against 1.5 billion elitists, organised, tax paying Chinese who want to take your land?

Your system of no government would be crushed by an organized nation that payed taxes to a central government that ensured adequate spending on defense and military training.

The power made the Chinese threat. The Opium wars followed by giving China to the Communists in WW2.

The Progressives in every country have made big government militaries. Starting from the War Between the States, the power class has grown and centralized every country on Earth.

The government has made the government necessary.

Without the organization of government your nation of no government would become slaves to an Elitists regime practically overnight.

The government is the Elitist regime. Every time.

We need an organized government and taxes. What we don't need is nepotism and corruption.

Nepotism and corruption are only possible by using taxed funds.

If you can think for yourself you will prosper in freedom.

If you cant think for yourself, you are expecting charity.

originally posted by: ketsuko

originally posted by: Isurrender73

originally posted by: Metallicus
Even if a living wage is possible...businesses are under no obligation to pay you more than you are willing to accept. I am not saying I agree that a living wage is possible, but even if it is I see no reason for those involved in some types of business to pay unskilled workers more than the work they perform is worth.

What value is a business to society if it's employees need welfare to survive? All your doing is shifting the responsibility of the wealthy to the middle class. Which is the exact system we have today.

Why are those employees working there?

When I was growing up, those types of jobs were manned in my town by high school kids learning the ropes of the jobs market, mothers who were working part-time jobs to bring in a little extra to help supplement their husbands or those who were disabled in some way and thus would have social safety net support regardless of the work they did or did not do, not by people trying to make a full-time living off of them as a career.

And what happened to those good jobs the husbands etc were working at?

They are mostly gone.

You are demanding people live in a world that used to exist.

We used to be a production based economy, meaning most jobs were in production.

Today we are a service based economy, meaning most jobs are in the service sector.

Your argument is the same as saying " they just don't want to own land, because they can go to the west and grab whatever they want in the land rush"

That time and place does not exist anymore .

People can't do as you demand, it is impossible, because those jobs don't notice exist any longer.

a reply to: Drinking

But that doesn't mean that 2/3 of the workers in the wealthiest nation in earth, with one of the highest productivity rates on earth, that already gets less benefits than pretty much any other advanced nation on earth should live in poverty .

From the point of view of the rest of the world, the entire West is in the 1%.

By your logic, everything you demand should go to the rest of the world, because they don't have as much as you.

originally posted by: Edumakated

originally posted by: Isurrender73

originally posted by: WiseThinker
If this was implemented,

Then all the people earning above the wage cap (Also, what do you propose happens to current fortunes?) would simply up and leave, and now that entire portion of your GDP calculations would be gone, Same goes with increase in tax, the rich are just going to find better ways to invest it, they are not going to pay more tax.

So when X politician says if we raise the top tax by 5% and we will earn X millions more, then they are lying or dont know economics, the wealthy will just find better ways of spending the 5%, its simple math, it will cost them less than 5% of their income to find out how to avoid the system

Do you understand supply and demand?

If the merchants and bankers leave, new merchants and bankers will take their place. As long as the consumer has a demand someone will produce the goods and services to meet the demand.

You obviously don't understand supply & demand or you wouldn't have started this inane thread. Supply & demand is why some people make a boat load of money and others are barely getting by. Wages are where supply and demand intersect if you were to graph it out.

I fully understand supply and demand.

Which is why I know that limiting someone to 20 Million dollars would have Zero impact on supply and may actually increase demand as more money would flow through the economy. I'm not sure how 2.1 Trillion sitting in offshore accounts is fueling the supply and demand model.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

But I am certain that 2.1 Trillion in the hands of consumers would go a long way in fueling the supply and demand model.

a reply to: nwtrucker

Just so you understand who is on the other side of this debate. I left a low six figure job and took a 50% pay cut because I wanted a less stressful job.

I am not arguing for myself. I could return to six figures within 4 years if I choose to. Probably sooner if I wished to do work that I no longer enjoy.

I am not the one suffering. I have the intelligence that elitists business owners prize. I simply value humanity more then I value myself.

originally posted by: Semicollegiate
a reply to: Drinking

But that doesn't mean that 2/3 of the workers in the wealthiest nation in earth, with one of the highest productivity rates on earth, that already gets less benefits than pretty much any other advanced nation on earth should live in poverty .

From the point of view of the rest of the world, the entire West is in the 1%.

By your logic, everything you demand should go to the rest of the world, because they don't have as much as you.

Starving is starving, in the West or not.

The West is the 1% many of its citizens are just as poor as the poor in the poorest country on earth.

Homeless and hungry is homeless and hungry now matter your local.

originally posted by: Drinking

originally posted by: Semicollegiate
a reply to: Drinking

But that doesn't mean that 2/3 of the workers in the wealthiest nation in earth, with one of the highest productivity rates on earth, that already gets less benefits than pretty much any other advanced nation on earth should live in poverty .

From the point of view of the rest of the world, the entire West is in the 1%.

By your logic, everything you demand should go to the rest of the world, because they don't have as much as you.

Starving is starving, in the West or not.

The West is the 1% many of its citizens are just as poor as the poor in the poorest country on earth.

Homeless and hungry is homeless and hungry now matter your local.

No way that is true.

Only a fool would believe that.

a reply to: ketsuko

You can't blame Obama Care (ACA) on wage control, because their is no wage control outside of the minimum wage in this country.

Unless you mean the Elitists who wish to control the wages of everyone else?

Those who continue to exploit the labor force with $hitty wages and force you to pay for the ACA so they can take more for themselves?

originally posted by: Isurrender73
a reply to: ketsuko

Did they teach you how the Federal Reserve prints money and creates digital money out of thin air and loans it back to you with interest?

If it was taught in your economics class you can be assured you were taught the values of Elitism.

No thank you. I will believe in the vision of supply and demand that is delivered through a small business model. Which is the model that made this country the greatest economy in the world.

Globalization, unlimited corporate growth and the hoarding of money by those who have too much to spend are what are destroying this country.

An interesting comment since that 'printing' has gone nuts under the justification of financing not only a broken economy but the social programs you espouse under an Administration that espouses your views.

a reply to: nwtrucker


I have no idea how you compare my ideology with the ideology of those currently in power.

This administration is bought and paid for by the 894 sitting on top of the pyramid, not the general population. The 894 are not buying politicians in an attempt to cap their own wages.

a reply to: Isurrender73

If you pay attention to what I post then you know I am no fan of the Fed's monetary policy at all. Printing empty money with nothing of value to back it simply devalues the dollars already in the system.

However, let's play an exercise in why wealth caps are a bad idea.

In Zimbabwe, the currency has been so debased that everyone is a multi-millionaire in their native currency. Of course, it doesn't matter because it takes millions simply to buy a load of bread. But if you institute a cap on the amount a person can make, and then continue to debase the currency the way the Fed is, you are on a collision course.

a reply to: Isurrender73

Then I suggest you utilize that intelligence and observe how your view of livable wage redistribution is based on arbitraries, enforcement and is as 'elitist' as any out there.

You blame the 'elitists' for the ills of the current situation, but frankly, it is glib and a generality. A factor? Yes.

International competition is a factor, a near open border policy adds to the supply and demand imbalance and empowers those that argue for even more gov't intervention.

These points are basic, to say the least. Those that sit at home and draw a wage for promoting and as a direct result, diminishing personal ambition via the 'unfairness' of it all serve mankind not one whit, IMO. (I'm saying that is you).

a reply to: nwtrucker

A $16.80 minimum wage is not elitist. It's humanity working to support each other. Most people with any skills should be making $20 per hour and more.

The only reason International competition is a problem is the minimum wage is so much lower in other countries. I don't think a nation should trade with any nation that is not willing to establish an equitable minimum wage.

The amount of waste that goes into imports and exports to exploit low income wages in other nations is ludicrous.

Force China, India and every other exporter to pay the same minimum wage as the US and millions of production jobs would return to the US practicality overnight.

If they refuse, stop importing their goods. We can succeed without made in China, made in India and made anywhere but the US.

Yes. I blame supper pacs for buying political influence and tit-for-tat laws that have gutted the middle class while the 1% get wealthier. And I am not alone in this debate.

originally posted by: Isurrender73
a reply to: nwtrucker


I have no idea how you compare my ideology with the ideology of those currently in power.




This administration is bought and paid for by the 894 sitting on top of the pyramid, not the general population. The 894 are not buying politicians in an attempt to cap their own wages.

You blame elitists, then propose a solution that enforces on the rest of us utilizing the same mechanism as those same elitists. Legislation. Merely another form of elitist control.


So your solution is to cap their wages? Forgetting the 894 already have their money made? Require no further 'wages'?

It seems to me it merely assures no one enters their level of power! Locks everyone else out. 20 million? Peanuts....

The 'elite' are locked in and in control. That's what 'wage restrictions' also results in...

a reply to: Isurrender73

Again, you are making arbitrary calls.

Cost of living is vastly different in those other countries. Someone in one of those countries does not need $20/hour to make a solid living for their families because the costs of everything else in those countries is that much lower.

You see a very different cost of living in this country depending on where you live. My husband would have to making $30,000 to $35,000/year more on top of what he is making now in order for us to enjoy the same standard of living we make now were we to move to either California or New York state, and we simply live in a different US state.

That is not to say that people in those countries do not live in grinding poverty, but to artificially elevate them to $20/hour is jumping the gun. It's not what they need. Heck, most people in the US don't need that to make a solid living. In this area, prime union jobs don't even offer that.

originally posted by: nwtrucker
a reply to: Isurrender73

Like all left wing/socialist/communist 'ideas', the first implementation is deemed reasonable. I.E. acceptable to the socially aware-as opposed to the socialists, there is a difference.

The obvious one already stated is who decides? This 'reasonable' version says 20 million. WHO THE HECK IS KIDDING WHO?

20 megs would be decried, at an even higher volume than the current in 'wage inequity'. Empowering it will increase the volume and restrictions with 'precedent' now set to continue the incremental moves.

Here's one for you. You are making exactly what you deserve!

Your career choice, your lack of study/self-improvement, your failure to read or foresee market changes. No one else's. Not mine, not the gov't's, not the 1%.

Your bed, you made it, you sleep in it. Just like the rest of us.

If you spent as much time and effort working on changing your lot rather than whining about other's success, you'd likely be successful....or at least closer to it.

Deal with it...

Exactly. Notice the subtle tyranny involved in all their ideas. They always involve taking someone else's stuff by force for the greater good. Individualism and individual accomplishment has to be stamped out under these models.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Isurrender73

In Zimbabwe, the currency has been so debased that everyone is a multi-millionaire in their native currency. Of course, it doesn't matter because it takes millions simply to buy a load of bread. But if you institute a cap on the amount a person can make, and then continue to debase the currency the way the Fed is, you are on a collision course.

You do understand that private central banks, usury and imports exceeding exports are the reasons for such inflation, right? Those are also the reasons for all inflation and economic problems globally.

My ideas are about changing the matrix we live in completely.

A fair and balanced competitive system that still allows for an elitists class while promoting humanity over an insatiable desire for power.

The type of inflation in Zimbabwe would be impossible if I were the author of the new matrix.