Texas Seventh Grader Says Teacher Told Class: ‘God is a myth’

originally posted by: Logman

originally posted by: Metallicus

originally posted by: Zcustosmorum

originally posted by: Kali74
a reply to: Zcustosmorum

I disagree. A publicly funded education system is not a place to tell children what they believe is wrong that what their parents teach them is wrong, it's not a place to children they should believe in anything either. I don't like religion either, that's why I choose not to practice one. That freedom to choose is precious.

Excellent point, I should've added that the teacher should've got promotion if they simply said that there isn't actually any scientific evidence that points to the existence of God.

Nor is there any scientific evidence that disproves the existence of God. This is probably why Kali (our OP) said this discussion should be left out of the classroom entirely. Atheism is just as much establishment of a religion as Judaism or any other religion. It is, in the end, an opinion.

Atheists don't believe in something. Therefore it's the opposite of religion. I'm agnostic and I don't believe in Jesus or the Easter Bunny or anything. I worship nothing, I go to no religious services, I do not pray. Religion plays no part in my life. How can that be a religion? How can the absence of something establish that very something? Sounds pretty ignorant.

And yet you are an agnostic and not an atheist? He is right though and you are wrong. Look at the teachers claim, how can anyone know? So he or she know so yes i may be an agnostic on most days and the atheist is just another flavor of fundamentalist.

Apologise for the missing special chacters but my keyboard is not displaying them correctly. After getting intoxicated three days ago, now my keyboard displays this : as a comma and this 0 is a closing bracket. Strange isnt it?

a reply to: Gryphon66

Beyond that I can't help you; this thread is not about the existence of gods, and I don't care even a little whit about what you think about me.

I never even thought about what I think about you. This is simply a debate.

ATM god Jesus and the bible should remain entrenched in the fiction section . However if one of the first two were to reappear i would be the first to say i was wrong .

originally posted by: Zcustosmorum
a reply to: Kali74

Give that teacher a pay rise, any other statement on religion to children is effectively brain washing.

Any statement either way could be considered brain washing. It's just that one uses one kind of soap, and the other uses another kind of soap to wash that brain with.

People don't need to be told what to believe either way. Learning about God is a choice anyways.

A school that tells students that God is a myth is also brain washing. Why does a teacher find a need to do that? It boosts their own insecurity and promotes their own personal beliefs onto their students which is not part of the curriculum. (It sure is a part of the extreme liberal left curriculum running the school systems country wide though).

Do you see the hypocrisy of your post now?

originally posted by: Metallicus
a reply to: Gryphon66

Beyond that I can't help you; this thread is not about the existence of gods, and I don't care even a little whit about what you think about me.

I never even thought about what I think about you. This is simply a debate.

Right. Over half your last post was telling me about what I think and believe and giving your own personal take on the world.

Debates are about facts, not opinions.

In regard to the "liberals in charge of curriculum nationwide" bit above ...

Will Texas Decide What's in your Textbook? National Education Association

“Sometimes it boggles my mind the kind of power we have,” McLeroy recently boasted.

To many Texans, however, what’s more mind-boggling are some of the revisions. Critics charge that they promote Christian fundamentalism, boost conservative political figures, and force-feed American “exceptionalism,” while downplaying the historical contributions of minorities. (See slideshow below for examples of the changes.)

Rita Haecker, president of the Texas State Teachers Association, believes the year-long review process deteriorated into a political and divisive spectacle.

“The circus-like efforts of right-wing board members,” Haecker said, “to impose their own religious and political beliefs on the public school curriculum have been and still are a national embarrassment.”

How Texas Inflicts Bad Textbooks On Us

No matter where you live, if your children go to public schools, the textbooks they use were very possibly written under Texas influence. If they graduated with a reflexive suspicion of the concept of separation of church and state and an unexpected interest in the contributions of the National Rifle Association to American history, you know who to blame.

When it comes to meddling with school textbooks, Texas is both similar to other states and totally different. It’s hardly the only one that likes to fiddle around with the material its kids study in class. The difference is due to size—4.8 million textbook-reading schoolchildren as of 2011—and the peculiarities of its system of government, in which the State Board of Education is selected in elections that are practically devoid of voters, and wealthy donors can chip in unlimited amounts of money to help their favorites win.

originally posted by: Zcustosmorum
a reply to: Kali74

Give that teacher a pay rise, any other statement on religion to children is effectively brain washing.

Since you can show me any facts that discount the possibility of God you just proved you are incapable of having an opinion that should be taken serious on the subject.

This discussion is not about the pros and cons of the existence of gods.

It is about the fact that such questions have no place in a seventh-grade public classroom.

(And one lying little girl of course ... but the mother is mostly to blame for that)

a reply to: Kali74

this teacher should not have brought God or lack of God into a classroom of seventh graders or any classroom in the public school system.

The teacher is clearly stating a fact that the concept of a deity or God, is one of personal belief and as a belief system is not based in anything approaching fact, though how forcing a deity into the minds of schoolchildren, any different to parents taking a new born baby and carrying it into church to be baptised, or subjected to Islamic rites, Hindu Rites, Jewish rites etc. etc..etc. and then steadily and surely 'incorporated' into that belief system essentially from birth and continually drum it into them over the course of their childhoods?

This is how religion works and has always worked..instil a sense of fear..fear your child won't be saved unless they are initiated into the rites of the accepted religion, create fear that the child will suffer somehow if the rites are not completed...this is essentially Child abuse and brain washing.

It's effective but morally indefensible...which is ironic. (but less so these days)

It is a fact that many people believe in gods and that many do not.

It is a fact that our Constitution is very specific about no level of government establishing one religious viewpoint over another.

It is a fact that any discussion of the existence of same, pro or con, doesn't belong in a seventh-grade public classroom.

Period.

Keep Religion out of the Public Classrooms. Doesn't matter if it's Pro or Con either because no matter how you bring it up or for what reason it will always become an issue. So don't bring it up. Easy.

Save it for after High School when young minds have matured a bit. Then if they want to poison their minds it's up to them and they'll be doing that anyway with booze and drugs.

I have a question.

What should a hypothetical middle-school teacher say to a student who asks them what they think about the idea of "God"?

Twlever-year-olds are certainly capable of doubting adults. They are also capable of making plans - one of the clients I had was a young girl who approached the school counselor regarding her parents. She had an elaborate plan to get her preschooler sister out of the home, and had contacted extended family to arrange for shelter and safety.

She believed she was safe doing that, safer than staying at home with her dysfunctional parents.

So, back to my hypothetical scenario: Suppose this hypothetical child is abused daily by Parents, and harshly handled and "forced" to engage in the religion of the parents; suppose they are troubled enough by it that they consciously choose to disclose this to the teacher (a person they have been taught to trust)....and finally drums up the nerve to ask his or her favorite teacher what the teacher thinks about the "God" idea.

Suppose the child explains that they are confused, and troubled, and want to know what the teacher thinks - or simply to have someone to tell about the problems at home, knowing it is appropriate to tell a teacher (a mandated reporter).

What should the teacher do?

What then, ATS?

Now, take it a step further: suppose the child has asked the teacher directly what the teacher believes, and discloses the abuse at home that occurs daily in the "name of God." Then suppose the teacher decides NOT to help the child navigate this crisis (which is very real to the child)......

and shortly afterward, the child winds up DEAD. Is the teacher in any way liable and responsible for that death, because he or she failed to step up and take the child's case to the authorities?

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Buzzy, it seems to me that your scenario is a very specific issue.

Were I the teacher in question, and a child asked a question in class about God, I would simply reply that there are many different perspectives about that question, but that due to the nature of our Constitution, talking about the actual existence of God/gods was not appropriate for the classroom. Then, I would try to have a conversation privately and/or with the school counselor to see if I could find out what was troubling the young lady.

Helping a kid in trouble is very important; however, so is the separation of church and state.

Dealing with the very specific situation you are hypothesizing about is why we (hopefully) have professionals in place in the classroom who understand how to deal with sensitive situations.

a reply to: Gryphon66

It is a very specific issue, Gryph. A young man was beaten to death by his "loving, God-fearing parents" just this month.

How do we know that this little girl wasn't browbeaten by her mother after hearing this story, and told her she'd burn in hell unless she told the news WHAT THE MOTHER wanted her to say?

Why did she lie about it? Why take it to the news?

All the mother had to say to her was, "Well, honey, some people don't believe like we do, but that's okay."

But no - she had to pitch a hissy-fit by proxy, and God only knows what went on at home before the girl "came forward".
You are exactly right, the teacher would best have taken the child aside, or pointed her to the counselor's office. I don't agree with what she did, but I don't agree with the mother dragging her kid into a grown-up squabble over religion, either.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

I am saddened by that news, Buzzy. I hadn't heard about the young man's death.

Notice above I referenced the likely effect of the mother using her child to further her own political agenda.

Working with LGBT youth in Atlanta who have been thrown out of their homes for their differences by their parents, I am all too painfully aware of the inhumane atrocities that some good "Christians" can inflict, even on their own kids.

And before the Wailing-and-Gnashing-Chorus goes there, I am not talking about all Christians, I'm not talking about most Christians, I'm only talking about the Christians who do such vile things to their OWN CHILDREN.

A mother who would use her child for what I'm sure she conceived as "Kim Davis" style notoriety is despicable.

a reply to: Gryphon66

Thank you. That is all I have to say about it.

a reply to: Kali74

This is difficult for me because on one hand, I firmly support the freedom of religion and keeping beliefs/non-beliefs out of gov't and schools.

BUT the OTHER side of me, is praising this teacher for having the courage to attempt to dispel the indoctrination that has been heaped upon the poor, unknowing children of this nation and hopes at least ONE of those kids will be able to keep thinking and questioning until they come to the logical conclusion that the teacher was, in fact, correct.

It hurts me so much every time I see a child falling into step with religion and becoming yet another victim to it's choke-hold.

The correct thing to do would have been to encourage the children to learn for themselves rather than making that statement. She's technically in the wrong - especially stating they would get in trouble for it and she should be reprimanded on that alone, but damn it, I do respect her for trying. It's hard to stay quiet sometimes.

a reply to: Necrobile

I like the way you think.