Secular+Other Religions vs. Christianity

originally posted by: Barcs

originally posted by: Isurrender73
They are hypocrites for working for a company that they know delivers alcohol whether they participate in the delivery or not.

Surely you hold the same standard for the bakery, right? They are hypocrites for working for a company that they know bakes cakes for weddings in a place where gay marriage is legal?

As long as we are on the same page there, no problem. I agree that both folks should work somewhere without a conflict of interest.

Yep, the bakery should bake a cake for all customers, regardless of faith or sexual orientation.

It's about loving one another and doing your job.

It's not about being special or superior because of one's religious views. Judge not lest ye be judged by the same measure.

The delivery drivers are judging themselves morally superior asking for special privileges. The bakery refused based on moral superiority. Kim Davis refused to marry based on moral superiority.

Separation from church and state in a secular society gives you the right to believe and live as you choose. It does not give you the right to refuse to do your job based on religious moral superiority.

No one is forced to work. But we should be forced to do our job without discrimination of others and without moral segregation.

Workplace segregation was wrong when it was white and black and it's wrong based on religion.

a reply to: stolencar18

Muslims across North America and Europe are expanding their belief system and it's considered racist or offensive to question it while Christianity is pushed further back. I'm not saying there's some global muslim conspiracy - I'm saying that the two are not treated equally and its bs.

I'm anti-theistic towards all religious beliefs but I seriously think the fascism of Christianity has been put to end in western societies. The only reason you notice it now is because Islam has put Christianity out of the lime light and has had their religious practices accommodated in this particular instance. How many times have we heard of Christians being able to discriminate against Gays,Interracial couplings,Drug users and talk their xenophobic rhetoric with no penalization what so ever? Hey that's fine, their christian but oh no how dare the Muslims,Jews or Satanists get special treatment! Give me a #ing break...

originally posted by: sdcigarpig
a reply to: Krazysh0t
What I would like to know is the following:

1) What is in the employee handbook and the job description.
2) Did the people driving know and understand that they, as part of the job, would be transporting all sorts of items,including alcohol.
3) Did the truck drivers, inform the employer that they would require accommodation due to religious nature?

These questions are very important to ask and get answers to these questions. If neither side let the other know, or chose to ignore such, then it could cause problems, and companies could end up losing law suits like this.

Well this case happened back in 2013, so it looks like the courts spent 2 years going over that VERY information.

When I was hiring and firing, I would walk a person around the store, through all of it, explaining that they would have to do certain tasks, from emptying trash, to cleaning bathrooms, to stocking, including beer and soda, along with other products. It was at that time frame that the employee would have to put forth that they would need accommodation or not. If they did not state such, and it was in the job description as to what all was required in the job, and they refused, they could be fired, and ultimately, there would be write ups and paperwork to sign.

Not every company behaves like you would.

a reply to: NateTheAnimator

ya know, unless it's changed in the last few months, christian organizations can even discriminate in their hiring policies and hire only other christians and still receive funds from the faith based initiative. I wonder how many Islamic Groups are getting funding for their faith based initiated outreach programs even?

a reply to: dawnstar

ya know, unless it's changed in the last few months, christian organizations can even discriminate in their hiring policies and hire only other christians and still receive funds from the faith based initiative. I wonder how many Islamic Groups are getting funding for their faith based initiated outreach programs even?

Yeah I've had a friend of mine work for a small christian organization/company..Even if you were qualified for the job they would still hire the unqualified christian. Stuff like this actually makes me sick that it's even considered acceptable business behavior..

originally posted by: dawnstar
a reply to: NateTheAnimator

ya know, unless it's changed in the last few months, christian organizations can even discriminate in their hiring policies and hire only other christians and still receive funds from the faith based initiative. I wonder how many Islamic Groups are getting funding for their faith based initiated outreach programs even?

Depends on the size of the company.

I think its something like a Family Owned with 10 employees or less (that is a guess).

originally posted by: Isurrender73

originally posted by: Barcs

originally posted by: Isurrender73
They are hypocrites for working for a company that they know delivers alcohol whether they participate in the delivery or not.

Surely you hold the same standard for the bakery, right? They are hypocrites for working for a company that they know bakes cakes for weddings in a place where gay marriage is legal?

As long as we are on the same page there, no problem. I agree that both folks should work somewhere without a conflict of interest.

Yep, the bakery should bake a cake for all customers, regardless of faith or sexual orientation.

It's about loving one another and doing your job.

It's not about being special or superior because of one's religious views. Judge not lest ye be judged by the same measure.

The delivery drivers are judging themselves morally superior asking for special privileges. The bakery refused based on moral superiority. Kim Davis refused to marry based on moral superiority.

Separation from church and state in a secular society gives you the right to believe and live as you choose. It does not give you the right to refuse to do your job based on religious moral superiority.

No one is forced to work. But we should be forced to do our job without discrimination of others and without moral segregation.

Workplace segregation was wrong when it was white and black and it's wrong based on religion.

I think that compromise will be the only solution that works. A willingness for all sides to find a decent solution.
ie. A baker should offer a basic cake to a couple without having to put two ken Barbie dolls on top of it. The couple still gets a cake. Photographers should not be forced to take gay pictures but should try to help find the couple one who will take pics.

a reply to: Annee

nope,
religiondispatches.org...

Civil liberties advocates have tried for years to persuade Obama to make good on a campaign promise to end hiring discrimination by federally-funded faith-based organizations, to no avail.

Instead Obama has continued a policy, laid out in a 2007 Justice Department Office of Legal Counsel memo, known as the World Vision Memo, that says that under the Religious Freedom Restoration Act, federally-funded religious social service organizations can request an exemption from legal requirements prohibiting discrimination in employment.

A Christian organization may hire only Christians, in other words, if it so chooses—as is the case with World Vision, one of the biggest faith-based charitable organizations in the country.

originally posted by: deadeyedick
A baker should offer a basic cake to a couple without having to put two ken Barbie dolls on top of it.

In NONE of the cake lawsuits has the gay couple asked for special decorations. NONE asked for 2 male or 2 female toppers. All they wanted was a basic wedding cake.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

not the way I remember the one in az. but I will take your word for it.

I think we both agree that it will take compromise and those that do not want to participate should not be forced.

what you say does not make much sense at all because why would they feel the need to tell everyone they are gay if they are buying a bare cake.

You walk in pick out a cake and leave

originally posted by: deadeyedick
You walk in pick out a cake and leave

Not if the owner kicks you out first...

a reply to: NateTheAnimator

Sounds more like jealousy on your part.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

it has always been that other places want the business and bad advertisement goes a long way in the free market

these are grown ups that can put their own pants on

it will not end with everyone being welcomed everywhere so why even bother with the legal bs if the free market can provide other options???????????!!!!!!!!!!

that was the beauty of our system vs tyrannical gov that would not allow other stores catering to those that are seemingly going against the grain



also do you feel that the two drivers were right or wrong?

a reply to: Krazysh0t
Not really, before I wrote someone up, here is what I had to do, as per the instructions given to me and as company policy:

When I had to write a person up, if it was the first infraction, I had to do a conversation on the person. And they would sign the document, and was given a copy of such. 2) On the second infraction, I had to first contact the district manager and human resources, and then before I presented them with the write up, I had to let the district manager read and approve of such. Then it was always done in private. A copy had to be sent to human resources. At which time either could over rule me and it would be destroyed. It was all to prevent not only lawsuits but to ensure that all things were on the level for both the company and the employee.

a reply to: sdcigarpig

Not really what? Why are you continuing your personal anecdote? The point I was making is that not every company follows the same write up procedures. Yes there are laws and regulations for these things, but not every company is on the up and up.

a reply to: dawnstar

I was thinking a regular type company/business.

I was not thinking a religious focused organization. If the main focus of your business is about a specific belief --- a possible antagonist wouldn't make much sense.

a reply to: Barcs

1. For the Muslim, he is not using his religion to put other people down or oppress others. Alcohol as a whole goes against his beliefs so all he asks is that he doesn't have to transport it. It's not the end of the world.

Perhaps it is not the end of the world but there are other things involved in this. What about seniority rights of the other workers? Most all transport companies are unionized and most all drivers are given preferences by length of time served in the company. Are these rights to be ignored because of a religious belief? If one did not believe in eating certain foods would that also apply as does a religion? What about all other products that contain alcohol which is contained in thousands of products from medicine to foods.

I believe there was another situation some time back where a Muslim cab driver refused a person/s as a fare simply because they had been drinking alcohol. Never bothered to question the fare as to any tobacco usage. Don't you think that this is far too demanding on this society? I have yet to read where Muslims are very concerned about their brothers chopping heads or even murdering their own families in honor killings but now are so concerned about transportation of alcohol. Insanity? Real close don't you think?

a reply to: Seede

First, comparing this situation and the person involved to "their brothers chopping heads" is insanity, not even remotely close. That would be like me comparing the baker to people in the dark ages that tortured folks for blasphemy or people that bomb abortion clinics. This guy isn't a radical muslim that follows Sharia, he's a mulsim American.

I personally don't feel we should make exemptions for any religious person no matter what the faith. BUT when you need to make money and you can't get a job anywhere else, it doesn't seem fair to just kick them to the curb. It's been mentioned above, that accommodations can be made if they are reasonable and don't hurt the business. A big transportation company could always have somebody else transport the alcohol. Now if alcohol was the only thing these guys ship, then he is working at the wrong place, but since they do not, it doesn't seem like a big deal.

Also I very much doubt that if I told the company I worked for that I was Rastafarian that they would allow me to break the law and smoke cannabis at work. Again, there are reasonable accommodations and there are ridiculous ones. It doesn't look like the company is breaking and losing profits from this one Muslim transporter. If so, they they have a reasonable excuse to fire the guy. With the cake lady, it will directly hurt the business to refuse cakes to certain customers, so they should fire her for not doing her job. She is not a law maker and has no right to deny folks their rights or turn down customers she doesn't "approve" of.

Can any Christian in here justify the reasoning behind the anti gay position with New Testament bible quotes? How is it the hateful position is the one that sticks for thousands of years, while the other commandments are treated as silly or outdated? I would like to hear some Christian justification for this view, first of all, before claiming it goes against your beliefs. Truth is, it doesn't. Jesus never spoke out against homosexuals and everything he taught suggests we should treat everybody equally including perceived "sinners".

I'm still looking for a response to this if any Christian is willing to tackle it.

a reply to: Barcs

First, comparing this situation and the person involved to "their brothers chopping heads" is insanity, not even remotely close. That would be like me comparing the baker to people in the dark ages that tortured folks for blasphemy or people that bomb abortion clinics. This guy isn't a radical muslim that follows Sharia, he's a mulsim American.

Only pointing out inconsistencies that's all. If one doesn't believe in use of tobacco then that also should be a consideration of that one demanding preference of employment. Chopping heads and honor killings are part and parcel of this very same religion, and yes in this U.S., and is never mentioned as offense by these very religious people who are offended by the alcohol. That was the comparative inference in my post as you very well understand. The only insanity is that of this religion to demand special privileges. All Muslims are Muslims least you need to be reminded.

Can any Christian in here justify the reasoning behind the anti gay position with New Testament bible quotes? How is it the hateful position is the one that sticks for thousands of years, while the other commandments are treated as silly or outdated? I would like to hear some Christian justification for this view, first of all, before claiming it goes against your beliefs. Truth is, it doesn't. Jesus never spoke out against homosexuals and everything he taught suggests we should treat everybody equally including perceived "sinners".

You have to be more specific to get a complete answer. Are you talking about the commandments of Jesus or Moses?
Firstly you need to understand that Jesus never taught that all people were equal.

a reply to: Krazysh0t
The point being, is that if a company wants to avoid lawsuits like these, they are going to need to be on the ball, making sure that they not only follow the federal and state laws, but also start informing employees of the nature of the job that they are doing. And getting dates and signatures of such.