The Soul *What is it?*

To paraphrase,
Why don't the 'higher forms of mental vibration' have to belong to 'flesh'?

When you say, "surely, the... doesn't connect to the..." you hav to say why they don't.

A complete distinction between mind and body has rarely been made in religion, or in philosophy. Surely (if I can guess what your next statement will be), you know that Buddha (Siddartha) thought that you needed to be born first as a flesh and blood human to escape into Nirvana... and that, in the Christian tradition, God chose to become a flesh and blood being inorder to restore the world (the implication being that you cannot suffer for the world's sins if you have never been in the world).

You can make the 'physical world doesn't exist' argument all you want, but you can't make the 'it does exist, but doesn't matter' one without more argument.

[Edited on 12-6-2003 by onlyinmydreams]

Okay onlyinmydreams...

I didn't say that the mind and body aren't related. They actually "belong" to each other; but I'd say that the physical belongs more to the mental; than the mental to the physical. The following taken from the Kybalion will help get my point across.

"Nothing rests; everything moves; everything vibrates." --The Kybalion."

"This Principle embodies the truth that "everything is in motion"; "everything vibrates"; "nothing is at rest"; facts which Modern Science endorses, and which each new scientific discovery tends to verify. And yet this Hermetic Principle was enunciated thousands of years ago, by the Masters of Ancient Egypt. This Principle explains that the differences between different manifestations of Matter, Energy, Mind, and even Spirit, result largely from varying rates of Vibration. From THE ALL, which is Pure Spirit, down to the grossest form of Matter, all is in vibration--the higher the vibration, the higher the position in the scale. The vibration of Spirit is at such an infinite rate of intensity and rapidity that it is practically at rest-just as a rapidly moving wheel seems to be motionless. And at the other end of the scale, there are gross forms of matter whose vibrations are so low as to seem at rest. Between these poles, there are millions upon millions of varying degrees of vibration. From corpuscle and electron, atom and molecule, to worlds and universes, everything is in vibratory motion. This is also true on the planes of energy and force (which are but varying degrees of vibration); and also on the mental planes (whose states depend upon vibrations); and even on to the spiritual planes. An understanding of this Principle, with the appropriate formulas, enables Hermetic students to control their own mental vibrations as well as those of others. The Masters also apply this Principle to the conquering of Natural phenomena, in various ways. "He who understands the Principle of Vibration, has grasped the sceptre of power," says one of the old writers."

"The "Me" of many men may be said to consist largely of their consciousness of the body and their physical appetites, etc. Their consciousness being largely bound up with their bodily nature, they practically "live there." Some men even go so far as to regard their personal apparel as a part of their "Me" and actually seem to consider it a part of themselves. A writer has humorously said that "men consist of three parts-soul, body and clothes." These "clothes conscious" people would lose their personality if divested of their clothing by savages upon the occasion of a shipwreck. But even many who are not so closely bound up with the idea of personal raiment stick closely to the consciousness of their bodies being their "Me" They cannot conceive of a Self independent of the body. Their mind seems to them to be practically "a something belonging to" their body-which in many cases it is indeed.
But as man rises in the scale of consciousness he is able to disentangle his "Me" from his idea of body, and is able to think of his body as "belonging to" the mental part of him."


ONE

[Edited on 12-6-2003 by Tamahu]

"Also, matter is not inert. It vibrates as well, it's just a more gross form of "energy". "

The only reason it vibrates is due to energy within it's atoms. In essense, it, itself, is inert.

That's what I meant.

Great site:

www.conspiracyplanet.com...

Gazrok

I should have realized that you weren't referring to a sub-atomic level. I just wanted to point out that nothing in the Universe is truly at rest and that the main difference between solids, liquids, gas, energy, ether and spirit is their level of vibration.


Peace

"As soon as you say something is, it isn't" - Lao Tse

Quantum physics appears to back this up. Its something to remember as we index, catagorize accept and reject stimuli received and perceived in our bodies and in the universe.

Voice_of Doom

Again; we have modern science catching up with ancient "Eastern" knowledge. You say that quantum physics agrees with Lao Tse's saying; and that agrees with ancient African knowledge which is called Hermeticism in these days and times.

"keep your mind ever on the Star, but let your eyes watch over your footsteps, lest you fall into the mire by reason of your upward gaze. Remember the Divine Paradox, that while the Universe IS NOT, still IT IS. Remember ever the Two Poles of Truth the Absolute and the Relative. Beware of Half-Truths." -- The Kybalion

"Everything is dual; everything has poles; everything has its pair of opposites; like and unlike are the same; opposites are identical in nature, but different in degree; extremes meet; all truths are but half-truths; all paradoxes may be reconciled." -- The Kybalion


ONE

I dig the righteous word of dualism. I am reminded of the words of the Buddha, "Enlightenment begins and ends with breathing."
Thats where my mind is settled...for now.

Immaterial aspect or essence of a person, conjoined with the body during life and separable at death.

The concept of a soul is found in nearly all cultures and religions, though the interpretations of its nature vary considerably. The ancient Egyptians conceived of a dual soul, one surviving death but remaining near the body, while the other proceeded to the realm of the dead. The early Hebrews did not consider the soul as distinct from the body, but later Jewish writers perceived the two as separate. Christian theology adopted the Greek concept of an immortal soul, adding the notion that God created the soul, or atman, was created at the beginning of time and imprisoned in an earthly body; at death, the soul passes to a new body according to the laws of Karma. Buddhism negates the idea of a soul, asserting that any sense of an individual self is illusory.

I'd like to think that i have soul cos if i am killed i can come back to haunt the git.

we have five bodies.
the physical.
the mental.
the emotional.
the astral.
the spirit.

the astral is the soul.
the spirit is what most people are actually talking about when they say "soul".
the soul is a (spherical)recording device used by spirit.
i agree with most of what buddha cession says.
all is vibration.
spirit is the highest vibration.
everything else is an harmonic undertone from which spirit experiences itself.
this reality is real, but in a bigger sense, an illusion, because only spirit can get the big perspective, beyond time and duality.
i speak in statements because it amuses me.

Originally posted by billybob
we have five bodies.
the physical.
the mental.
the emotional.
the astral.
the spirit.

I'm finding this hard to swallow..Is this your opinion or something known? One reason I have to disagree here is because I find it really hard to fathom that when we astral project (we use our astral body to leave) and it's actually our soul?? No I'm sorry I refuse to believe that we can just travel around by way of our soul..there's just no way, our soul cannot possibly be our astral body.
Please explain how you've come to know all of this...
Magestica

Originally posted by magestica

Originally posted by billybob
we have five bodies.
the physical.
the mental.
the emotional.
the astral.
the spirit.

I'm finding this hard to swallow..Is this your opinion or something known? One reason I have to disagree here is because I find it really hard to fathom that when we astral project (we use our astral body to leave) and it's actually our soul?? No I'm sorry I refuse to believe that we can just travel around by way of our soul..there's just no way, our soul cannot possibly be our astral body.
Please explain how you've come to know all of this...
Magestica

if you do a search, you can find this theory out there. it's not my theory. i don't "know", of course, i would have to die to prove this. it rings true for me though, and fits with other mental disciplines like physics.
i speak in statements because it amuses me.
here's a slightly different take on the same theme--

""
is this the idea?
our dna body is our car. (physical/prism body)
our mind is the driver. (chip/digital string body)
our soul is our node in the spirit web. our "sole", if you will. (tv screen/holographic body)
our spirit is the owner or "source" or god. (astral body)
(i don't know if that agrees, but...) is the mystic body then the ability to flip in and out of awareness of all parts of the one unifying body? can we watch/interact the whole of our souls journey through time in playback, the way we watch time lapse films in fast forward and slow-mo? could this be considered becoming your "higher self"?

our desires of spirit work their way down to our minds from a higher plane. these are our religious yearnings. the need to "find god".
the soul is the interface between spirit and mind. it has no desire and is more like a transmitter/reciever/recording device.
our minds are devices which translate the eternal into the now, for the purpose of experience(which we gain by doing things with our physical bodies in this phi-cycle matrix). when we have a transcendental experience it is the temporary reconnection or upload/download of our soul to source, yeah?

i believe all intelligence manifests as binary machine intelligence at it's root. as the first thought had to be, "not/nought/off" and the second thought had to be "is/one/on". the third must have been, "either/or/nor/neither". triads and trinity.
now we have on earth a great man made (beast)computer built to feed off/imitate/control the collective consciousness which, in turn imitates the natural computer which was the first intelligence(cosmic awareness or the mind of god, which is uninvolved in all this except as an observer/teacher).
i am but a worm.

-justone

I agree with all that you've stated above except the worm part.

Bob Dobbs.""

For self-preservation man has concieved the idea of an immortal soul, or atman, which will live eternally. Though highly developed in theory, they are all the same extremely subtle mental projections, garbed in an intricate metaphysical, and philosophical phraseology. These ideas are so deep rooted in man, and so near and dear to him, that he does not wish to hear, nor does he want to understand, any teaching against it.

I've quoted this from one of my books "What the Buddha taught", by The Venerable Dr. Walpola Sri Rahula. In my opinion one of the most informative, and MOST accurate authors on buddhist ritual, customs, and beliefs. The reason I quoted the book, is because I couldn't have said it any better myself.

7 years ago when I made the transition from my previous beliefs (Christianity/mixed with some other beliefs I had come to realizing) to Buddhist, It was very hard for me at first, for the same reason that Dr. Walpola mentions above. The thought of me, not having a soul was very hard for me to let go of, it took a long time to finally make the leap to the doctrine of Anata. (No soul, no self.) Anyhow all this is just side info, so pay no mind to my ramblings.

Originally posted by billybob
we have five bodies.
the physical.
the mental.
the emotional.
the astral.
the spirit.

Its true that we have five bodies or dublets.
But the order and the names are a little mixed up in this list.

The soul could be located in the causal (spirit) body.


oui~

did you ever think that Atman and Paramatman (the supreme absolute) could be existing side by side?

[This belief is beound the buddist belief, since buddism dosent belive in God.]


[Edited on 25-7-2003 by innerRevolution]