How exactly was Jesus' crucifixion a sacrifice?

originally posted by: Talorc
originally posted by: vethumanbeing

Talorc: The OP red)uces the concept to fit his purpose. It's quite obvious that Jesus' sacrifice wasn't in dying on the cross. That is a lazy strawman from someone who has a bone to pick. As to why we suffer? That's quite the weighted question, my friend.

The OP as the standard bearer naturally has an agenda. Usually it is a question posed in good faith looking for wisdom/answers from other like minded beings. It is not at all obvious why this Jesus personality was murdered in such a ceremonious (then portrayed later as pageantry) manner.

Talorc: Strictly speaking, suffering is a biological response to harmful stimuli. Emotional suffering is more intricate, arising from unsated desire, mistreatment, stress, or any number of things. Taking the existentialist view, perhaps we suffer because the world is chaotic and random and has no regard for us, and we are left to find our own meaning in things.

You answered it. You exhibited compassion. We suffer because this world SEEMS random, chaotic and outside of our control and no one appears to be in charge (we as latchkey children) are better than this and will solve this circumstance we find ourselves in. Are we waiting for God, or are we God not recognizing ourselves as its most perfect expression of ITSELF.

a reply to: Ghost147

We are all eternal beings. Obviously you find great pleasure in demeaning someone and something of importance to me, so it is easy to assume that you yourself do not know sacrifice. Or possibly you are a sad, hurt, and scared soul that lashes out because you want others to know your pain? I have great pity for you, and hopefully someday I will even have empathy for you

Use the brain in your heart to understand the story.

Just your brain is not enough, God made you with neurons in your heart, gut and brain. Make the best use of then all.

He is trying to persuade us using this as an example.

He just cant appear and say believe me. That takes away all your free will. You wouldnt have a choice to believe. He is giving you the chance to use decision making to love him or not.

Do you threaten your wife or husband to love you or you want then to decide on their own?

He cant just impose himself like that since we must choose on our own. We had a great moment of inspiration with Jesus, he lived a perfect life, performed miracles and was murdered. You see no value in this? No lesson? Doesnt matter if Jesus was God incarnate or not his action spoke louder than words. Even if you think its fairytale you dont get any lesson from this?

a reply to: Ghost147

The way it is posed by Christians is that Jesus's father made the sacrifice. It's usually along the lines of "God loved us sooooo much that he gave his only begotten son... etc".

So you have this godling who injects an avatar into the physical plane, with the purpose of dying in a very public way, and then be respawned in three days only to log out again. The godling sacrificed nothing. The son is the only one who did the suffering and he didn't really seem to expect it (father why have you forsaken me).

Had I been alive before Christianity really took the shape it did, I would have predicted that Christians would have only revered Jesus and simply abandon the cruel old testament god for what he did to Jesus. I am still a bit confused that Christians revere YHWH at all.

Spoiler:

Adam and Eve were in a perfect world, but they had free will. Through free will, they performed an imperfect action and literally cursed all of creation. As demonstrated throughout the Old Testament, animal sacrifice was performed to atone for the sins (aberrant actions) that the people committed since the fall. When God told Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, and Abraham obliged, this exalted Abraham, because he was willing to do what God would do later with his Son Jesus. The world was being flooded with crappy people, and God promised to never again cleanse the world by a flood, there had to be a blood sacrifice for the sins of mankind. No ordinary animal sacrifice, but a perfect sacrifice that had no blemish: God's Son. This allowed people's sins to be forgiven, and established a new and everlasting covenant (Another spoiler: Jesus never said heaven is limited to after death, it is to be sought after during your lifetime)

The prophets of before Christ predicted this coming, but it is also clearly shown by the names of those in the lineage from Adam to Jesus: Prophetic Lineage

Jesus is different than others who have died by crucifixion because Christ was 100% innocent of all wrong-doing. Believe it or not, you do reap what you sow, also known as karma, Newton's 3rd law, etc... To put it briefly, Jesus was like a karmic sponge for all humankind.

a reply to: cooperton

cooperton: "Jesus is different than others who have died by crucifixion because Christ was 100% innocent of all wrong-doing. Believe it or not you do reap what you sow, also known as karma, Newton's 3rd law, etc..To put it briefly, Jesus was like a karmic sponge for all humankind".

The question is this: DID HE KNOW everything beforehand (hind or foresight) when embarking on this ill fated journey of his, and if so why not correct or manipulate the outcome of his horrible demise? As Jesus was an Essene had no interest in creating yet another dogmatic belief system run by others already wielding monies and power. In fact, that is exactly what happened with the creation of Paul's Church. Jesus was not a karmic sponge at all; merely the metaphor for what the human race has always been, a revolving door (hamster wheel reincarnation factory) you just recognized.

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: Ghost147

Immortal or not...

the shear amount of pain he went though would be enough for anyone else to say "no way in hell im going down there...

He knew where he came from, and he knew where he was headed... In fact he even said that

By the way, Christians believe he actually went to hell after he died... based on one passage

silliness eh

This is how I see it. His sacrifice was the pain of the crucifixion. I also believe he made the choice to come knowing he would be harmed.

I don't agree with Jesus going to hell either.

a reply to: cooperton

Spoiler:

Perfection does not beget imperfection… else it was made imperfect to begin with.

What I don't understand is why "Almighty", omnipotent God NEEDED Jesus to suffer and die. If he's so powerful, why couldn't he just declare, "Let all humans who believe in me go to heaven! And there were humans who believed in Him in heaven..." (get it? "Let there be light...")

a reply to: Abysha
I know, its crazy. The New Testament became the foundation for Jesus's ministry "Christianity". So now we have Judeo/Christianity and I have no idea what this is supposed to accomplish as the old testament of Jewish lore; is actually based upon a recitation/regurgitation of Gilgamesh and/or stories from the Akkadian/Sumerian MYTHFACTS. Noah the reinvention or newer better incarnation of the much more ancient being Utnapishtim.

a reply to: bitsforbytes "he cant just appear and say belive me"

why not, he played hide and seek with Adam in Eden. It amuses me that christians say he can see whats in
and yet he was blind to the Serpents motives in Eden

originally posted by: TheConstruKctionofLight
a reply to: bitsforbytes "he cant just appear and say belive me"

why not, he played hide and seek with Adam in Eden. It amuses me that christians say he can see whats in mens hearts
and yet he was blind to the Serpents motives in Eden

a reply to: cooperton
"through adam all of creaton was cursed"
I guess the all knowing God fell short in predicting the outcome. Keep telling yourself
you are fallen through Adam -fear keeps the flocks returning

originally posted by: Ghost147To me, it would make a lot more sense Jesus went down to Earth, did his thing and spreed his message, and then eternally went to Hell afterwards. Would that not be an infinitely more powerful and moving sacrifice. Knowing that he would spend the rest of eternity in Hell, rather than knowing he'd be right back to super-perfect heaven?

Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ doth also rule hell.



He has the keys. Remember?

I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
-Revelation 1:18

Isn't that the very insignia on one of the Vatican symbols?


Mike Grouchy

a reply to: bitsforbytes

God made you with neurons in your heart, gut and brain. Make the best use of then all.

The neurons outside the brain, and many inside the brain, serve for autonomic function

He cant just impose himself

Really? The Bible is full of instances of Yahweh imposing himself on Humans. Both directly and indirectly.

There are a couple of things you should know about God. One, he is perfect, there is nothing wrong in him, he cannot lie, and he is incorruptible, he can never sin. Everything he does is good and perfect and holy.

He does not break his own standards of righteousness. So when he created man in perfection and man lost that perfection, of course we know the wages, or penalty, was death.

And just as Adam sinned, and procreated, he spread sin to all humankind, his offspring.

God has no need whatsoever to redeem mankind. He can just wipe us all out as the just punishment of sin. All of us.

In his great love he decided to pay the ransom price, with his son's permission, of sin.

In God's law to Moses we see his perfect justice requires: "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth." A "soul for a soul."

As one perfect soul was lost, another perfect soul was required to pay the ransom price. True he paid it to himself, and his son of course, who did indeed live as a human and did indeed die for our sins. He could do so because he died perfect, without defect, he was innocent and sinless when he was murdered.

So the price was paid.

God is NOT like human leaders, you give them a little power, even police, and they will abuse it. They may think the're above the law, can speed, ignore parking signs, murder with impunity, etc. God is not like that. First he makes the righteous requirements, and he himself abides by them. And then, with himself as the example, requires everyone else to do so as well.

Imagine a world ruler that lived up to that degree of justice and righteousness.

a reply to: mikegrouchy
Free Masons are all over this regarding 'Keys" or the path to achieving enlightenment (heaven). Catholics stand no chance in challenging this and must accept/claim their rightful place as the Overlords of the hell they have FALSLY (through fear mongering) convinced others of existence. As they created the idea/notion of a hell, so should be its eternal diligent caretakers, pruning plucking and nurturing that ugliness it calls an ill-fated destiny (no penance or hail Mary's enough said to save believer innocents) even the absolution of a confession before a priest helps this circumstance.

When God told Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, and Abraham obliged, this exalted Abraham, because he was willing to do what God would do later with his Son Jesus.

It takes religion to turn murdering innocent children into a morally good action.

a reply to: Lucid Lunacy

God did not murder his child. Scripture tells us that Satan put it into the hearts of wicked men to murder him. To blame God for something Satan and wicked evil men did is unjust. Just as Satan lied about God, so do so many others, all his children. For he loves the lie, and his disposition is that of a liar:

(John 8:44) You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a murderer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie.

a reply to: JackReyes

God did not murder his child.

No. Of course not. This Biblical figure never murdered anyone. Not then, not with the flood, not with Sodom and Gomorra, not with the condoning of death sentences for trivial offenses... It's all just. After all it came from an all-loving god.