Scientists Gold and an experiment

'Put on your tiny tinfoil hat '

About a week ago I started to get interested in gold after I saw a russian documentary about the precious metal. After I've read a lot of (mis/dis)info I came to the conclusion that mysteries connected with this element deserve further attention. As a Dutch/german/russian speaker I'm not that good in english and therefore this tread is prone to be full of gramatical mistakes.

The First Question.

All the mysteries aside one central question pops in my mind :


Question : were did all the gold that exists on our planet come from ?

This turned out to be difficult to answer. The 'old' answer was that it was created in supernova's and before that the answer was that death stars created the precious metal. The current popular explanation is that it is formed during the collision of neutronstars. Ok I've my tinfoil on and I am not that eager to follow scientists blindly on that theory. Here is the link to the article

www.washingtonpost.com... 64871_story.html


'These explosions make an astonishing amount of heavy atoms. Kasen did a back-of-the-envelope calculation for the June 3 event and found that it produced about 20 Earth-masses worth of gold. That’s enough gold to fill 100 trillion oil tankers, he said. '

Look that isn't real science that's just an 'back-of-the-envelope calculation' I mean I get that gold is formed at a Neutronstar collision and I get it's a lot but the universe is also a rather large place isn't it ? Where are the actual scientific calculations I was asking myself ? Being bedazzled with numbers doesn't make a theory valid....

citing the same article...

But he (Berger) said, “There is no real need to invoke another mechanism.”

Look that is like saying 'dont think any further we know all'. It's like the pope burning gordiano bruno just for stating the obvious. And this is also not very scientific... I'mean one doesn't invoke mechanism in physics. Mechanism do or don't exists. And if they do exist they have to be explored. Science is in essence objective...

Gold on earth...

Ok... I get that gold came on earth by impacts of meteors on the early earth. But... Well gold is a very heavy metal and shouldn't all gold be concentrated in the core ? Why is there even gold on the surface ?

'
Most of Earth’s gold is trapped in the planet’s core, he said. And, he(Berger) added, there’s a long-standing conjecture that at the very center of the Earth is a small core that’s pure gold.'

hmmm... Well the material of our planet was formed in previous supernova's wasn't it ? Now it's suddenly neutronstar material ? I mean does material from an impact actually travel to the core ??? I mean thats 6000km deep ? Well as stated in the article they (scientists) are still debating that...

With that in my mind I started to look for a scientific calculation on the net how much gold (and other heavy elements) in our universe could actually be formed... I didn't find a thing.

Tin foil warning !

Again with al the mysteries surrounding the precious metal it's hard not to see certain connections involving fringe science and CT's. But hey it's ATS so here i go...

Elements have certain property's (like cU is a good conductor) and let for a moment assume that gold has some yet to be discovered property's. It isn't hard to imagine that exotic (I call materials formed during a collision of neutronstars exotic) could have very special properties just because they are formed at energys that makes CERN look like a little toy. I say COULD have. But at very high energies weird things happen science already has proven that !

For instance :

Frogs and people fly at (10> Tesla).

Should you ever guessed that that would happen ? I for instance didn't know that organic matter is diamagnetic. I'm bringing this up just to point out that materials/elements formed in extreme situations may/could have properties yet to be discovered.
But for now it seem that we will never find out. I mean how do you experiment with gold if you don't have it ? What if there was practical no metal on earth ? Would it ever be possible to build a electromotor ?


This is where science ends... (GEDAnken) experiment :

What for instance will happen if one rotates a supercooled 500kg solid golden disc at 40 kelvin at a speed of 20000rpm ?

Don't get me wrong I am not saying that something will happen. But IF I DO no-one can prove me wrong. Most of you would say notting will happen. But let for a moment assume that I have a very good theory that some effect will happen. Isn't the scientific way to investigate the matter ?

But hey who on earth will fund a scientist that needs 500kg gold just to prove some theory. This is where science meets the real world... The idea of a element having a unknow property is just too far fetched. Science advances in very small steps because of funding. And also science isn't objective anymore.

So If gold has some unknow property we might never know it because of MONEY and greed.

a reply to: raytheo

Ok... I get that gold came on earth by impacts of meteors on the early earth. But... Well gold is a very heavy metal and shouldn't all gold be concentrated in the core ? Why is there even gold on the surface ?

Simple answer is that the Gold, arriving on asteroids and meteorites, don't all arrive at the same time.

It's a continuous process of deposition of Gold (impacts), then the Gold required Millions of years to gradually sink, but then along come more impacts (spread over geological time of course).

Hence why gold is found near volcanoes.

a reply to: MysterX

Thanks , Yeah I get that but how and where was it formed in the first place ? I don't buy into the neutronstar theory until I see a scientific theory.

a reply to: raytheo

I'd imagine it has to do with exposure to being bombarded with intense radiation in stars.

A very similar thing happens on Earth, although of course on a much smaller scale, around the shielding of nuclear fusion reactors...every fusion reactor has a fine layer of Gold on the inside surfaces of the reactor, where shielding has transmuted into Gold.

That's why the same thing is thought to be going on inside stars (fusion), where elements are transmuted from one element to Gold, and then ejected either in Solar 'winds', or CME's and flares...and of course Nova's.

I don't have answers for you, but i think you are a little off on the price of research, depending on you want to do 18 millions is nothing, and I'm not talking about cern level experiment, I'm talking about just taking images with a TEM ( a titan microscope can be $15m), gold is cheap in comparison to what scientist use, if someone got a good hypothesis he can pitch for fund 18m in gold is nothing

In short the price of 500kg of gold is well whiting what a group could get to investigate something, if someone want to do it he just need to be a good salesman for his idea.

a reply to: raytheo

because tungsten, gold, and uranium have nearly identical densities..19 g/cm etc, they would follow each other to the core if such exists... my guess is that exploding supernova seeded the galaxy with all fusion products including the heavies, and then they re condensed into solar systems, seeding all planets with the heavies...now, the argument that there might be unknown properties is interesting and should be perused...plenty of suppressed energy transforms i e tesla.

Theres gold suspended in seawater. It doesn't sink to the bottom because although gold is a heavy element, it isn't heavy when its the size of atoms.

Gold in seawater

Lead is heavy too, yet it travels by wind to the west coast of America from China…

Article

originally posted by: raytheo

What for instance will happen if one rotates a supercooled 500kg solid golden disc at 40 kelvin at a speed of 20000rpm ?

Don't get me wrong I am not saying that something will happen. But IF I DO no-one can prove me wrong. Most of you would say notting will happen. But let for a moment assume that I have a very good theory that some effect will happen. Isn't the scientific way to investigate the matter ?

The scientific way would be to first say "Gold has such and such properties; here are my calculations showing that at or below 40 kelvin as rotation rate starts to exceed 20000 rpm, we should be able to measure such and such effect."

When this hypothesis has been made, then there is some justification to do the experiment.
Otherwise, we are just doing every possible thing at random, without any reason or clue at all why we should do the thing and what should we be expecting. And to do every possible thing with all possible variations "because I think it should be done" will take all the time and resources in the world. Even more.

Technically speaking, to test your theory out you wouldn't actually need a 500Kg disc of pure gold.

You'd start the experiments on the very small scale, with a golden disc about the size of an ounce or so, cooled with readily available Liquid Nitrogen and a capable set of bearings. (magnetic repulsion bearings would probably be a better choice than standard bearings though, due to the cold)

Test using a small setup, get results that allude to your theory possibly having merit...then acquire funding for a scaled up experiment.

a reply to: raytheo

So If gold has some unknow property we might never know it because of MONEY and greed.

Man sees less with greed than more with vision.

a reply to: MysterX

40 kelvin not a really problem but if one downscale at 1 ounce is. the disc has to spin at about 7miljon revolutions per minute to get some effect. or else It's a bit like levitating a frog with only a toy magnet... Then again I tried to propose my experiment years ago and have abandoned it since ... Also my theory isn't exactly standard science so well you might guess why I didn't get funding But my point was in this thread that possible effects that exists way outside the theory at extremes might never be discovered if science advances within the parameters of an at the moment incomplete theory....

a reply to: Pirvonen

... i did exactly that years ago explaining my theory and the reaction was exactly like yours... 'we can not fund ever ad hoc experiment' after that I left science...

- Reason - is a relative concept somehow most scientists define reason within the parameters of the current model. And I for myself don't think that science is already evolved to it's omega point. It's my opinion that true science has to advance outside the parameters of the well known paths.

a reply to: intrptr

isn't that in ionic form ? I mean the solid gold in the gold veins

a reply to: raytheo

I was addressing the notion that gold sinks to the core of the earth. Gold is everywhere, precipitates form in the presence of water and steam in underground channels in rock.

Along with a ton of other minerals.

gold geology

a reply to: raytheo

I watched a series on the discovery of Éléonore possibly the largest deposit of gold we have uncovered in the last 20 years..goldcorp funded the location and excavation of the gold deposit in Canada in the (Shield) an area known to have have been hit by multiple meteorites..initially they had a world renowned geologist from Italy who looks for certain characteristics which lend themselves to gold deposits the first of which are large quartz deposits followed by copper veins once you see those two you are pretty darn close to the mother-load.. all of which happen from extreme heat..

I don't deny that gold has a more significant role than just vanity but unfortunately the masses need to look fancy which is more important than say a possible reaction that could benefit mankind as a whole...