"Anti-Bullying" Campaigns Are Useless

a reply to: ScepticScot

m.thepostgame.com...

youtu.be...

a reply to: luthier
Royce Gracie who is 6ft of solid muscle and a 6th Dan fighting in a controlled environment one on one.
That is exactly like the average school kid after a few lessons getting picked on in the playground.
A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing and in the real world there are no nice crash mats to land on or instructors to stop when things get out of hand.
You might have missed when i said self defence is important but the best it can do is stop the kid getting hurt in a one off situation. It does not magically stop the problem of bullying.

originally posted by: ScepticScot
a reply to: luthier
Royce Gracie who is 6ft of solid muscle and a 6th Dan fighting in a controlled environment one on one.
That is exactly like the average school kid after a few lessons getting picked on in the playground.
A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing and in the real world there are no nice crash mats to land on or instructors to stop when things get out of hand.
You might have missed when i said self defence is important but the best it can do is stop the kid getting hurt in a one off situation. It does not magically stop the problem of bullying.

Guess you didn't watch the links. The video is of a 5 day Gracie class.

You have no idea what it does for kids self esteem to be able to protect themselves. Bullying will never go away and self defense training is many times more useful than any ani bullying campaign.

Without self defense you are a victim waiting to be beat up. The anti bullying campaign does absolutely nothing for the victim until its too late. At least self defense gives you a chance. The antibully program does not do that.especially outside of school.

Kids feel great when they know they can defend themselves and their friends. The have much higher self esteem than having to rely on others to defend them.

Watch the real life video of a kid who was severely beat up and the process of taking the Gracie class.

The wrestling and judo programs I teach are 100 times more effective than any anti bully program. They give kids their lives back.

Royce Gracie was a skinny kid. 6 ft 170lbs. They used him because he was average size. He also wasn't a 6th Dan at the time.

The only thing that's dangerous is expecting the world to solve your problems.

a reply to: Tenebris

I for one just love how people never fail to anthropomorphize humans into being something more than what we really are.

We are not angels. We are not unicorns that spew rainbows. We are not saints.

Truth of the matter is, we are animals. We have the capacity to be "more" through understanding, dialogue, and compassion. But, no matter how you slice and dice it, we are animals.

There is always a pecking order in nature. Bullying, is the name humans have adopted for the enforcement of that pecking order.


Now, am I pro bullying? No. Absolutely not. But to think that it can be eliminated...is to deny what we are at our core.

We are what we are.



"To look for heaven, is to live here in hell"

originally posted by: ScepticScot
a reply to: greencmp
The reason that it is illegal to drive at 120 but not 5 is that it is possible to make an informed decision about a balance between safety and undue restriction. Not everything has to be a slide towards totalitarianism.
Not every child gets raised in the best circumstances, we are products of our upbringing and children raised in a violent home are more likely to commit violence themselves. I don't see efforts to reduce this as any form of arbitrary social experiment.

So, you're OK with driving drunk at 5?

That is an unexpectedly reasonable position but, the law does not agree with you.

a reply to: luthier
I think I have said three times (maybe 4) that self defence is important. However it doesn't stop bullying. The causes of bullying are many and varied and has a hugely detrimental effect on the life chances of all those involved.
Martial arts are a great way of building confidence and keeping fit but they are certainly not a cure all and are not suitable for all kids.
Once again (and I cant believe this needs pointing out) a UFC champion is not a typical example of a kid getting bullied at school. I should also point out that martial arts can be learned by anyone bully our bullied, they don't confer some magical advantage on the oppressed (life is not a Chuck Norris movie).
I would say the only thing more dangerous than expecting the world to solve your problems is expecting violence to solve them.

originally posted by: greencmp

originally posted by: ScepticScot
a reply to: greencmp
The reason that it is illegal to drive at 120 but not 5 is that it is possible to make an informed decision about a balance between safety and undue restriction. Not everything has to be a slide towards totalitarianism.
Not every child gets raised in the best circumstances, we are products of our upbringing and children raised in a violent home are more likely to commit violence themselves. I don't see efforts to reduce this as any form of arbitrary social experiment.

So, you're OK with driving drunk at 5?

That is an unexpectedly reasonable position but, the law does not agree with you.

Pretty sure that's not what I said. Speeding is illegal its judged that driving above certain speeds on certain roads is excessively dangerous. Drink driving is illegal as alcohol affects your reaction time, judgement and coordination. Two separate things. Speeding while drunk is a double whammy of stupid. Do you agree with speed limits or alcohol limits on driving?

a reply to: nullafides
First, and I really hate to be that guy but I am pretty sure you can't anthropomorphise a human being.
I entirely agree at our core we are still animals and pecking orders will always be present in any group situation. However that is not an argument for accepting or tolerating bullying. We can try and encourage the better angels of peoples nature. Education can help show kids (and adults for that matter) a better way of dealing with their issues and resolving disagreements.
Sure there will always be a hard core of bullies that wont change, however a large amount of bullying is done by good kids who either don't realise what they are doing is wrong or are responding to the environment they are in.
We cant stop all bullying but any real effort to reduce it has to involve different measures. Not victim blaming that it is the bullied kids fault for not standing up for themselves.

originally posted by: ScepticScot
a reply to: luthier
I think I have said three times (maybe 4) that self defence is important. However it doesn't stop bullying. The causes of bullying are many and varied and has a hugely detrimental effect on the life chances of all those involved.
Martial arts are a great way of building confidence and keeping fit but they are certainly not a cure all and are not suitable for all kids.
Once again (and I cant believe this needs pointing out) a UFC champion is not a typical example of a kid getting bullied at school. I should also point out that martial arts can be learned by anyone bully our bullied, they don't confer some magical advantage on the oppressed (life is not a Chuck Norris movie).
I would say the only thing more dangerous than expecting the world to solve your problems is expecting violence to solve them.

Self defense is the only proven thing to stop bullying. There is no way to stop it unless you plan on sedating the world and stopping poverty and in home violence. Even then it will continue.

Once again you miss the whole purpose of JiuJitsu which was designed by a very small person (rouyce's father) to defend small people against anyone.

I gave you a 16 minute video of a kid not a ufc fighter who was bullied and beat up who took a 5 day class designed by the Gracie family.

The largest most important aspect of not being bullied is learning you can stand up for yourself and others. The posture you learn directly effects de-esculation of conflict by having a confident posture. This has been 100 percent proven in our world and the animal kingdom. In the video the child couldn't even be around crowds or people and if you worked with kids you would know how the whole situation works. They need to have their self esteem back and sorry but talking about it doesn't work very well.

Again you are very wrong and have probably never actually worked with kids on this problem. In the years I have been a middle and highschool wrestling coach and a private judo instructor I have seen zero decline in bullying even while these programs have been put in place. I have seen parenting decline and babying and coddling of children who are all supposed to be equal of ability and its not fair when one kid is better than another. (Another dangerous lesson being taught to kids)

I have trained many woman and children to defend themselves and restore their self esteem by their own efforts. No bully has ever been allowed in a class that hasn't been converted to understand their own problems. In fact many times wrestling has turned kids around and given the an outlet. Everything a slogan commercial based anti bullying campaign already exists in martial arts except it has a whole physical discipline to support it.

Violence is being naive to reality in thi case. We are violent and through reason learn to control it. Pretending it doesn't exist is very dangerous. It's in every person on the planet and is a survival instinct.

I would love to see a stat on how well these programs work. Since they are not very proactive its just a way to make people feel good and pretend they are doing something.

You want to do something about bullying learn to protect yourself and your community. Take problem kids and put them in self decipline programs that teach respect. Don't just make some commercials so you feel like you did something.

a reply to: luthier
You really think that self defence is the only thing proven to stop bullying. Do you have any evidence for that. (hint you tube videos are not evidence?)
I understand as a martial arts instructor that you would live to believe that it really is that simple and that all it takes is for people to stand up for themselves and all will somehow be ok.
Sadly the real world does not work that way. Bullying is a complex issue that requires multiple solutions to deal with it. Boosting the self confidence if kids being bullied is a major part of that and martial arts are certainly one way but not the only way.
I did judo when I was younger and the main coach was always at pains to point out that a colored belt does not make you invulnerable.
As I agreed in other posts there is no way to eradicate bullying but there are lots of things we can do to reduce it. That you reject any other approach than learning self defence seems to me to be remarkably close minded and rooted more in your own world view than anything else.

originally posted by: ScepticScot
a reply to: luthier
You really think that self defence is the only thing proven to stop bullying. Do you have any evidence for that. (hint you tube videos are not evidence?)
I understand as a martial arts instructor that you would live to believe that it really is that simple and that all it takes is for people to stand up for themselves and all will somehow be ok.
Sadly the real world does not work that way. Bullying is a complex issue that requires multiple solutions to deal with it. Boosting the self confidence if kids being bullied is a major part of that and martial arts are certainly one way but not the only way.
I did judo when I was younger and the main coach was always at pains to point out that a colored belt does not make you invulnerable.
As I agreed in other posts there is no way to eradicate bullying but there are lots of things we can do to reduce it. That you reject any other approach than learning self defence seems to me to be remarkably close minded and rooted more in your own world view than anything else.

Have you ever worked with kids?

Exactly what are the other programs that work.

Maybe Google self defense and bullying you will find hundreds of articles.

Again this is very simple. Your posture and attidue as well as not displaying fear have a very large effect on deturring bullies. I am not talking about macho stuff or talking back but using confidence and language to detur a bully.


One of the problems I have with many current approaches is emphasizing the victim mentality. Supporting the victim with words and not giving them a way to feel safe and get their self-esteem back.

a reply to: luthier
You seem to want a simple 10 word answer to dealing with bullying. The one you seem to have selected is self defence as it is what you know.
Will it work sometimes obviously yes.
Will it work every time?

originally posted by: ScepticScot
a reply to: luthier
You seem to want a simple 10 word answer to dealing with bullying. The one you seem to have selected is self defence as it is what you know.
Will it work sometimes obviously yes.
Will it work every time?

So you have any expireince working with kids? Or child psychology or is this just theory you are talking about?

What is a failsafe method?.

What exactly do you suggest works? What methods have you used that produce results?

Maybe if the dad or mom abusing children see a famous sports star talking on TV they will stop abusing there kids? Your right it is a complex problem. Having worked with more than a few kids and foster kids myself with behaviour problems I can tell you self defense works. Being on a team works. Artistic outlets work. Out of all those self defense mixed with a program of skill recognition and the aspects that come from martial arts is the most effective I have seen for healthy self esteem in youth that has been effected by bullying

a reply to: luthier
Wait a minute, now you seem to be agreeing with what I have said. There are many ways to boost self esteem in those been victimised and improve behaviour in those who are doing the bullying. Team sports, art & drama programs all can have benefits. You are the one one who made the claim that only martial arts work.

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: greencmp

originally posted by: ScepticScot
a reply to: greencmp
The reason that it is illegal to drive at 120 but not 5 is that it is possible to make an informed decision about a balance between safety and undue restriction. Not everything has to be a slide towards totalitarianism.
Not every child gets raised in the best circumstances, we are products of our upbringing and children raised in a violent home are more likely to commit violence themselves. I don't see efforts to reduce this as any form of arbitrary social experiment.

That is an unexpectedly reasonable position but, the law does not agree with you.

Pretty sure that's not what I said. Speeding is illegal its judged that driving above certain speeds on certain roads is excessively dangerous. Drink driving is illegal as alcohol affects your reaction time, judgement and coordination. Two separate things. Speeding while drunk is a double whammy of stupid. Do you agree with speed limits or alcohol limits on driving?

Maybe I misunderstood or you did. I was saying that driving 120 is already illegal so I was asking if there was a rate of speed that was acceptable for someone who has consumed alcohol.

For the record, I do not believe that speed limits are useful and just about everybody agrees with me including the police who do not pull over the ubiquitous columns of vehicles exceeding that limit on a regular basis. It is a simple form of nullification that everybody enjoys.

In general, I disagree with any and all criminalization of potential harm though, I do agree with the criminalization of actual harm.

originally posted by: ScepticScot
a reply to: luthier
Wait a minute, now you seem to be agreeing with what I have said. There are many ways to boost self esteem in those been victimised and improve behaviour in those who are doing the bullying. Team sports, art & drama programs all can have benefits. You are the one one who made the claim that only martial arts work.

You haven't said anything specific at all about anything. You just argue that violence is bad and give general statements about how complex it is.

Again have you ever worked with kids?

I was not agreeing with you, you haven't said anything specific about kids and all those programs existed long before the anti bullying programs of today.

The reason why I believe martial arts is important to kids who have been bullied is because they learn to defend themselves from it happening again. While all the other things I mentioned are good in combination with or possibly on their own they still don't address the problem that it could happen again and in the mind of the kids it lingers.

originally posted by: ScepticScot
The view that the best way to deal with bullying is by hitting back is fundamentally flawed. We are just perpetuating the idea that the best solution is violence.
Absolutely kids should be allowed (and taught how) to defend themselves if attacked but that is to prevent themselves getting hurt. It is not dealing the actual problem.
As adults in a civilised society we use laws and negotiation to deal with problems, yet some people seem to suggest that the best thing is for kids to fight it out battle royale style and all will end well.

the thing is sometimes the best solution is violence.
so a kid is bullied...he turns the other cheek.....it keeps happening
a kid is bullied....he tells the teacher....it keeps happening and it might just be worse cause now mr bully is pissed cause he got detention
a kid is bullied...he tells his parents...parents have a meeting at school....mr bully gets in trouble with his parents....it keeps happening
a kid is bullied...he smashes bully in the face with his big ass science book...no explodes in front of everyone...bully cries and gets punked in front of everyone......mr bully never messes with that kid again

yup

a reply to: TinySickTears
Or the exact same scenario you describe only the ending is the bully waits to after school and him and a bunch of his mates stomp the kid so hard he ends up in a coma.
Violence breeds violence, the nice little morality tale that all that is needed is for the victim to stick up for themselves is stupid, insulting and frankly dangerous.

a reply to: luthier
I have kids off my own and used to coach under 14s at rugby. But this isn't a game of experience top trumps and neither my experience nor yours makes us experts.
Maybe you could try examining the possibility that your view that martial arts is some kind of miracle cure to bullying is at least slightly clouded by a desire to attach extra importance to what you do?

originally posted by: ScepticScot
a reply to: luthier
I have kids off my own and used to coach under 14s at rugby. But this isn't a game of experience top trumps and neither my experience nor yours makes us experts.
Maybe you could try examining the possibility that your view that martial arts is some kind of miracle cure to bullying is at least slightly clouded by a desire to attach extra importance to what you do?

There is nothing dangerous about standing up for yourself. The only thing dangerous is allowing yourself to be a victim.

Your solution is to get beat up so you don't possibly get jumped someday by the bullies friends?

Confidence allows you conflict resolution. These are very primal and constants in relationships.

I am not giving martial arts more credit than they deserve. They have been dealing with bully problems since the monks created them to defend themselves on the silk highway. Since they allowed farmers to defend themselves against tyranical emperors..

They have thousands of years of antibullying wisdom.

Your solution seems to be just comfort the victim. Useless long-term.