No: 269, 05 October 2015, Press Release Regarding the Violation of Turkish Airspace by a Russian Fed

a reply to: Zaphod58

I had noticed that earlier but for arguments sake I gave it a possibility .I am not even sure how a mig29 would fair against 2 F16's . I think it's probably just the usual noise in these kind of instances like the link to the Greek incident posted in this thread .

BBC just said Russia has admitted the Mig was one of theirs. Said it strayed off coarse.

a reply to: 23432

So you think it makes more sense that Russia spent weeks disassembling MiG-29s in secret, put them in containers and shipped them to Syria in secret, spent weeks reassembling them, in secret, over them being Syrian.

Just seen this ..."Russia 'Violated' Turkish Airspace Because Turkey 'Moved' Its Border
And as you might expect it was all cooked up by the US " russia-insider.com...

ISTANBUL - A Russian warplane on a bombing run in Syria flew within five miles of the Turkish border and may have crossed into Turkey’s air space, Turkish and U.S. officials said Sunday.
…
A Turkish security official said Turkish radar locked onto the Russian aircraft as it was bombing early Friday in al Yamdiyyah, a Syrian village directly on the Turkish border. He said Turkish fighter jets would have attacked had it crossed into Turkish airspace.

But a U.S. military official suggested the incident had come close to sparking an armed confrontation. Reading from a report, he said the Russian aircraft had violated Turkish air space by five miles and that Turkish jets had scrambled, but that the Russian aircraft had returned to Syrian airspace before they could respond.

The Turkish security official said he could not confirm that account.
So it is the U.S., not Turkey, which was first pushing the claims of air space violation and of scrambling fighters. The Turkish source would not confirm that.

But how could it be a real air space violation when Russian planes “flew within five miles of the Turkish border and may have crossed into Turkey’s air space”. The Russian planes were flying in Syrian airspace. They “may have crossed” is like saying that the earth “may be flat”. Well maybe it is, right?

Fact is the Russians fly ery near to the border and bomb position of some anti-Syrian fighters Turkey supports. They have good reasons to do so:

a reply to: the2ofusr1

Germany tested their MiG-29s against NATO in the 90s. The results were interesting. The combat systems were not intuitive in the least, the navigation system was difficult, and they had short legs that pretty much relegated them to base defense.

At medium and long ranges they were horribly over matched. But, at short range, with the IRST, AA-11 missile, and helmet sight, it absolutely owned every Western fighter it flew against.

a reply to: the2ofusr1

Turkey has claimed a five mile buffer zone in Syria dove l since some of their villages were hit by Syrian forces. It's pretty much illegal, and shooting down anything in it would be an act of war, but that doesn't stop either side.

Turkey used a SAM system to lock onto the Russian aircraft initially. The Turkish Foreign Ministry is saying two F-16s were scrambled. .

www.haaretz.com...

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: 23432

So you think it makes more sense that Russia spent weeks disassembling MiG-29s in secret, put them in containers and shipped them to Syria in secret, spent weeks reassembling them, in secret, over them being Syrian.

Not really .

I think they could have sailed them intact for sure .

I watch the damn ships everyday , they are huge .

NATO only picks on countries like Panama and Granada they don’t want to tangle with Russia and Turkey can’t even beat the Kurds


These Westerners are soft


Remember it was Russia who won WWII not the west.

originally posted by: ufoorbhunter
BBC just said Russia has admitted the Mig was one of theirs. Said it strayed off coarse.

Nyet.

Turkey is claiming two incursions (Saturday & Sunday). The one on Saturday, which was resolved quickly with no real mess or fuss, is the one that the Russians are admitting to, claiming a navigation error. The Sunday incursion, which involved an unmarked Mig-29 targeting at least 1 Turkish F-16, currently has no party claiming responsibility.

What we know:
Russia has aircraft in Syria, all of which are SU-XX models.
Syria has aircraft (obviously) in Syria, some of which are Mig-29's.
Mig-29's do not have the legs to fly from any Russian airfields out side of Syria, and penetrate Turkish airspace.

It is most likely that the Mig-29 was Syrian. Or from another Arabic state.

Edit to add: It was NATO that was first to claim that the second incursion was a Russian aircraft. Not Russia or Turkey.

a reply to: Willtell

Please explain what NATO had to do with Panama and Grenada. Last I checked those were US only conflicts.

Also no, Russia did not win WWII on their own.

Finally what does any of this have yo do with the topic?

a reply to: 23432

And you have to protect an aircraft from salt spray. Yes, ships are big, but you're talking about an aircraft with a wingspan of almost 40 feet, and almost 60 feet long. Those don't exactly lend themselves to fitting through a hatch on a ship easily.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: 23432

And you have to protect an aircraft from salt spray. Yes, ships are big, but you're talking about an aircraft with a wingspan of almost 40 feet, and almost 60 feet long. Those don't exactly lend themselves to fitting through a hatch on a ship easily.

Let's not underestimate the ingenuity of Russians .

Besides , it's not necessarly had to be a civilian ship . Doesn't Admiral Flota Sovetskovo Soyuza Kuznetsov visit the Russian base in Syria ?

a reply to: 23432

So they flew the rest of their aircraft openly, but snuck MiG-29s in. And with all the surveillance of the area don't you think someone would have noticed them unloading aircraft? Or even them sitting with the Russian aircraft?

More importantly, why? The Su-34 is a far better fighter in almost every aspect over the MiG-29. If they needed air to air aircraft they're far better off with them than the Fulcrum. It doesn't have the disadvantages that the Fulcrum has at range, the short legs, etc.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: 23432

So they flew the rest of their aircraft openly, but snuck MiG-29s in. And with all the surveillance of the area don't you think someone would have noticed them unloading aircraft? Or even them sitting with the Russian aircraft?

Southern Cyprus and Syria are rather close and planes from both bases do conduct joint operations over the east med . Routinely , a Russian Plane from Syria could land on the aircraft carrier and vice versa . My point was if these planes were Russian ( They were ) and if no one detected them flying in ( which no one did ) then it must be smuggled by shipping .
They didn't fly , didn't sail , didn't smuggled ?
Well , I am kinda out of answers to how these planes might of gottten to where they were .



More importantly, why? The Su-34 is a far better fighter in almost every aspect over the MiG-29. If they needed air to air aircraft they're far better off with them than the Fulcrum. It doesn't have the disadvantages that the Fulcrum has at range, the short legs, etc.

Chess move , simply put .

You never put your best pieces up front . That means Putin envisages a limited exchange at least and has catered for the eventuality .

Turks will shoot the next ones as they have declared ; USA declared that Turkey has a right to shoot Russian aircraft .

Somehow , Russia has a gun cocked at NATO ; An attack on Incirlik Airbase could trigger a massive war . Russians are rather close to an American Airbase as well as Turkish ones .

a reply to: 23432

First off, you're the only one claiming the MiG-29 was Russian. No one else has said it was.

Secondly, if it's a chess game and you move your best pieces, then they wouldn't have moved the -29s in. They would have brought Su-33s, or would use the Su-34 as a fighter. Both are better than the -29 as a fighter.

Third, Turkey said they would shoot at fighters that violated their airspace. You left out a fairly important part there. I'm sorry but last time I looked, they had that right, as does any other country. And the US has the right to back them up for shooting at potentially hostile aircraft that violates their airspace. Turkey has been attacked several times by aircraft coming out of Syria, and has had their own aircraft shot down by Syria. But that's OK, right? It's just wrong of them to defend their airspace.

Fourth, to use a carrier, it has to be in the area. An area that small is hard to hide a carrier in. And a carrier like that is not a good platform for this kind of operation. The aircraft have to launch with a limited fuel and weapons load because they don't have a catapult to assist them. With the MiG-29 already being fairly short legged, that's a horrible combination.

originally posted by: the2ofusr1
a reply to: Xcathdra

It doesn't say it knows who the Mig 29 belongs to but we shall call it Russian . Seems that Russia can cross the border and harass the Turks .The harassment part is not a mistake if true but if it is true what didn't the 2 F16's have a go at it ? Sounds like a fair fight and the Russians were warned .If unless maybe Turkey is just blowing hot air . Something about red lines being drawn by those not willing to back up their words makes this incident a bit funny . Maybe it has a echo from the past with Obama,s references to red lines . They are all big boys and I am sure they will work it out .

The Russians have no MiG-29s in Syria. The MiG-29 will be Syrian Air Force. It is a dangerous game if the Russians are allowing Syrian aircraft such as the MiG-29 to get into these positions close to the Turkish borders. This is how accidents and incidents can quickly get out of control.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: 23432

First off, you're the only one claiming the MiG-29 was Russian. No one else has said it was.

Russians said it a navigational error , didn't they ? Russians would speak about Russian planes , no ?


Secondly, if it's a chess game and you move your best pieces, then they wouldn't have moved the -29s in. They would have brought Su-33s, or would use the Su-34 as a fighter. Both are better than the -29 as a fighter.

If you are expecting that your plane will be shot down , would you still put your best piece at front ?
what is the Russian objective here ?
or is it just bad piloting ?


Third, Turkey said they would shoot at fighters that violated their airspace. You left out a fairly important part there. I'm sorry but last time I looked, they had that right, as does any other country. And the US has the right to back them up for shooting at potentially hostile aircraft that violates their airspace. Turkey has been attacked several times by aircraft coming out of Syria, and has had their own aircraft shot down by Syria. But that's OK, right? It's just wrong of them to defend their airspace.

My cousin is in charge of Turkish Airforce .

Fourth, to use a carrier, it has to be in the area. An area that small is hard to hide a carrier in. And a carrier like that is not a good platform for this kind of operation. The aircraft have to launch with a limited fuel and weapons load because they don't have a catapult to assist them. With the MiG-29 already being fairly short legged, that's a horrible combination.

It is in the area . If you look at the map , you'll see that the area is suitable . At this point I am not sure whether we are debating a) it was a russian plane b) it was a Mig .

a reply to: tommyjo

I am wondering if this were a middle finger to Turkey from the Syrian airforce. With Russia in theater now its entirely possible some fighter pilot was feeling emboldened and decided to show off.

The other possibility - A Syrian fighter flown by a Russian pilot to test Turkey.

originally posted by: 23432

Let's not underestimate the ingenuity of Russians .

Besides , it's not necessarly had to be a civilian ship . Doesn't Admiral Flota Sovetskovo Soyuza Kuznetsov visit the Russian base in Syria ?

Huh? The Russian aircraft carrier Admiral Kuznetsov is still with the Northern Fleet. She has recently just come out of dry dock and was having further work in Murmansk. You can't move such a carrier into the Mediterranean without it being noticed. Not to mention all the other Russian Navy vessels associated with the carrier. The Russians like to deploy tugs and tankers and the North African port of Ceuta, Spain would be busy with replenishments and vessel visits.

AND here we go...Like I have said elsewhere LET Russia get bogged down and take some Jihadi heat..news.vice.com...

THEIR turn again.