Let's discuss gun restriction using logic and reason

a reply to: ratsinacage

I have heard this argument before. But, the most powerful does not always win, especially when the ones in control of those powerful tools don't have the will to use them. Tenacity, courage, strength, intelligence, purpose, and will are powerful tools in and of themselves.

the problem is you will never be allowed to organize a movement of any significance with real potential without being taken out. So when you say what you did its only true in theory. It took the Founders and their ilk going to a new country and growing their movement away from direct scrutiny and perhaps thousands of secret meetings in houses before they had enough organization to pose a legitimate threat to the power structure.


Why dont you enlighten us as to the theoretical nuts and bolts kind of movement you think would in our day approximate what the Revolutionaries were able to manifest? For academic purposes only, of course.


Personally i dont believe gun ownership will ever be taken away. I believe its a token gesture given by the elite to the rabble to satiate their low brow ignorant belief that it somehow makes them free.

originally posted by: crazyewok
Logic and reason and guns restriction debates is a oxymoron on ATS.

Both sides will just descend into kneejerk reactions and hacky mottos and slogans plus the useal BS. Not to mention the insecure and paranoid turn up to descend into ranting and personal attacks.

Then you will get the normal group as well who will turn this into a place to star bait and back pat each other, normaly to validate there own insecuritys.

That is very well-said. And unfortunately, it's correct, BUT, it IS possible to have this reasonable discussion, if only with several people in a thread, by just ignoring those extremists on both sides. All the nearly religious dogma gets repeated ad infinitum and it's boring and useless. No one is getting educated, they're just digging in.

To the OP, It seems my thoughts are pretty much in line with yours, in that there is somewhere in the middle where the two sides COULD meet, but just like we see here on ATS, the political power players are firmly planted in their corners. I don't belong to either side, but all that means is that both sides see me as "the other side". I support firearm ownership and actual common sense laws and rules that make it harder for criminal minds to purchase firearms. Education is vital, and though I hate the idea of having gun safety as a part of the school curriculum, if it was done right, it could be very effective. It could be done with videos, pictures and discussion, so we wouldn't have some yahoo in there showing off his gun to the wide-eyed kids.

You said you hated one of your suggestions and I know exactly what you mean. It's not easy to compromise! Compromise isn't for weaklings, because it's HARD. But I figure if it results in fewer people getting killed and still allows for law-abiding citizens to purchase firearms (if a little less conveniently), then it's the only thing that makes ANY sense to me. If we keep going the way we are, the only change we're going to see is more and more tragic terroristic acts of violence on our people. We, as a nation, should take this more seriously, and do SOMETHING differently.

Edit: One more thing. The problem ISN'T guns. It's the shifting mental state of the population. To illustrate, many gun proponents cite the fact that kids used to have guns in the rack in their trucks on school property. The difference now is that another kid wouldn't think twice about breaking into the truck, by whatever means, and stealing the gun to shoot up some guys he's pissed at. We are living in a different time and, for some reason or combination of reasons, the population is going a little nutty. Be it social media, violent video games, latch-key kids or some other influence, something is causing some major mind shift in the way people are willing to behave. THAT is what we should be looking into.

a reply to: seaswine

I will start by saying I have misplaced all my guns and it sucks. Here's the thing being completely honest most times I will go into a store for a purchase. But if I am looking for something a little different I make one of 4 phone calls. There are no checks, no training, no nothing on these purchases. So while these are what would seem to be common sense suggestions they only apply if you go through the system. I'll be more honest, I have heard of drug users who can go to a brand new area or city and in a matter of hours have their drug of choice. I can do the same thing with guns. It's really not that hard to get a gun from outside the norm.

Funny thing, in all the decades and all the guns I have never killed anyone , how does that happen. I do agree education is key and I would support that. Also agree someone should be armed on school grounds.

As far as mental checks and patient confidentiality being broken, who deciedes what constitutes a mental illness? Politicians? Anti gun or pro gun people? No thanks. Also once you accept that it's ok to break patient confidentiality when it comes to gun purchases then what else is ok? Slippery slope I don't think people want to go down.

a reply to: Reallyfolks

How can you misplace your guns? isn't that very irresponsible?.

originally posted by: boymonkey74
a reply to: Reallyfolks

How can you misplace your guns? isn't that very irresponsible?.

LOL! Oh, man!

There is a talent to reading between the lines. Some have it. Some don't.

originally posted by: boymonkey74
a reply to: Reallyfolks

How can you misplace your guns? isn't that very irresponsible?.

Yeah, it sucks they keep disappearing or simply do not exist , Crazy.

a reply to: Reallyfolks

Ah so you don't have guns but do I get it now.

originally posted by: boymonkey74
a reply to: Reallyfolks

Ah so you don't have guns but do I get it now.

Cool, glad that's what you got.

a reply to: Reallyfolks

Yup you have illegal guns and have just basically admitted it on ATS lol hope the NSA,FBI and others do not read ATS.
Well done.

originally posted by: boymonkey74
a reply to: Reallyfolks

Yup you have illegal guns and have just basically admitted it on ATS lol hope the NSA,FBI and others do not read ATS.
Well done.

If thats what you think. It's all good.

I have given a lot of thought about this. Guns have been in our society since it was founded. However, even when I was in school long ago we might get into a fist fight, but no one went off to get their weapons and shoot up a bunch of innocent people. However, one thing did change in our society since the young people started going ballistic. And if you think the gun lobby is bad, just look at the pharmaceutical lobby.

These kids, most of them that eventually go ballistic and do a mass killing, have been given all sorts of psychoactive drugs when they are going through development of their brains. These brain chemical altering substances create the problem that they never learned how to deal with depression, anxiety, and many other mental health issues. It has become standard practice to prescribe a drug for every little mood disorder or problem. That is one of the problems with trying to tackle the real problem in my opinion. The pharmaceutical industry and doctors have written and made extensive changes to the DSM (Diagnostics & Statistical Manual for Mental health issues). They have added and come up with a disorder for every drug class they can come out with. Now some of these people may really need to be medicated if they have a severe condition. But today people get a drug for every little thing it seems. I was talking about it with a pharmaceutical regional manager (retired now) in my family. When he was growing up and when I was, there were no drugs given to the majority of kids except the truly out of control ones. Now, every child has to sit quietly in school and not act out, too much energy you get a drug. Depressed you get a drug. Have anxiety you get a drug. The problem is these kids never develop the tools most of the older adults have of learning to deal with depression. It comes and goes. No one is happy all the time.

The problem comes in when you give these drugs early in life to children that never learn to deal with stress, anxiety, etc. the natural way we all used to. Then they become adults and find out not everyone gets a trophy and life is a bitch. They can't handle it and explode. It may not be all kids, but we don;t know when it is going to go wrong because no one has studied the issue. Sure certain people that have problems that we might recognize in development are now being altered by a drug and we don't know little Johnny is a psychopath in development.

And when you mix multiple drugs, or mix one with illegal drugs the problem is just compounded. I believe this is why we are seeing this in this generation. We used to do all the same things, but our generation did not get an A on every test, or a trophy.. We learned about competition early and we were better prepared for adult life. Problem today is kids live in a fairy tale lie given to them by adults, teachers, and doctors. Both parents have to work to make it in life today and don't have the time to really see the issues with the kids and often if there is one, it is covered by a drug. A quick fix and no more problem, until later.

Guns will never be gone out of society. The EU with their strict no guns allowed laws are finding out that gun control is not working with the jihadis over there. They are better armed than the police. That is because criminals do not follow the law. And while the US isn't needing to import guns, they are smuggled into the EU. In Belgium, rookie police are sent out into the street during training to buy an AK47 and most complete the task within 2 hours. People think baning guns in the US will make gun deaths go away. It won't, just like the illegal drugs are not gone off the street. They will come in, probably in full automatic variety along with the dope smuggled in. Criminals will get them. And the problem today is that the government does not know how many guns are out there. For a long time they weren't tracked from the gun store. There were weapons brought home from wars, there are people (I know a couple) that make guns like the AR-15 and these don't have serial numbers or any way to be tracked. Are you going to remove all the metal lathes and punch presses from society as well?

The problem is that guns are here to stay for one. I don't care what laws you pass or how many you try to confiscate. They are buried in large PVC tubes everywhere just so they are there if they are needed. Is the government going to dig up the countryside? Not a chance. So, by grabbing guns, you will only make crime easier and more brazen. Then you will be feeling like you are in a 3rd world country.

This is why when you look at cities with the strictest gun laws, like Chicago since our President is from there, they are the worst for gun violence. You only keep the good people from fending them off or at least being equal to their attackers. So, making the whole country like Chicago is not going to help. And like others have mentioned, the determined actor will just resort to building bombs, or something else. It's not like you can't figure out how to make them with common chemicals found in every hardware store with the internet available.

We have to find the source of the problem. What is making these people go off. I see two reasons. Either the drug issue, or religious extremism which is mostly done by muslims as far as terrorist attacks go today. The Oregon shooter had a lot of connections to muslim extremists after reviewing his myspace site's friends. Don't expect this administration to admit they were muslim extremists either. Just like the one that shot up Ft, Hood was workplace violence.

If people don't get over the BS PC crap and start calling things the way they are, you will never get to the source of whatever issue you are trying to talk about. The PC crowd doesn't realize the PC tool was developed to tie up the language to describe problems with certain issues. Most normal people aren't even educated enough to see there is a problem and accept that attacks like Ft. Hood were workplace violence and not the fact the guy was a muslim extremist. Just look at any vide of reporters going out in the street to ask fellow Americans what they celebrate the 4th of July for, or what countries border the US. It is quite alarming at the ignorace of so many Americans. But, that is part of the dumbing down of America program.

So, we have to look at the root causes and I gave you my opinion on what the root cause was.
In engineering we do 'root cause failure analysis' when something breaks down. That way we can repair not only the failure, but prevent it from happening again.

Gun control is all feel good but impractical in our society. Most honest police officers will tell you they are not here to protect you. That is your job. They come after the fact in most instances. And in our reality, that means you better be able to protect yourself and in America that means a gun. You also have to realize that a lot of the anti-gun people don't live in the same America the majority of us do. But if you live in a gated community or on a golf course, you probably don't understand what it is like in the cities, or in low income or even many middle class areas. People only know their experiences. Find the ROOT CAUSE and I think you will stop these mass shootings. Drug inhibited developing minds and Extremism imho.

I had one other thought. Obama says he can't do anything. Well, he could not send billions in aid to countries that hate us and instead put armed police or military police vets at the schools to protect children. The guns are out there and will not be disappearing as there is no way to get them all anyway. Criminals do not abide by the law. So, Obama is full of crap when he says he can't do anything. He can use his phone and pen when it fits his agenda. And the globalist agenda is to disarm citizens so they can bring in their idea of what America should be. Not paranoid, it is right there in the UN programs like the Small Arms Treaty which says that countries can seek outside help if their police and military can't or won't disarm citizens.

Do something about the problem. In engineering we do root cause failure analysis. It works with these mass shooters too. People just want to argue for more laws, of which will do very little for the situation. Look what the war on drugs did, made drugs more prevalent and quantity and quality went up. Guns will come right in with the drugs for criminals. It is a problem of why these people are losing it.

When I was in high school back in the seventies, I took a class, "outdoor literature, how to survive in the wildernesses . A nine week course on guns, fishing, navigation and how to get by in the wildernesses. It's the best class I ever took. Today it would be very politically incorrect. Maybe we lost somethings in trying to be politically correct.

When I took my VFR pilots class in 2001 I was screened for mental health prior to my solo flight, perhaps we should combine the two.
I have never harmed anyone, yet I own several weapons.

a reply to: Reallyfolks

I lost all my firearms in a boating accident.

Tragic.

Here is two men discussing gun rights using BOTH logic AND reason:






Thomas Jefferson and George Washington.

originally posted by: Reallyfolks

originally posted by: boymonkey74
a reply to: Reallyfolks

How can you misplace your guns? isn't that very irresponsible?.

Yeah, it sucks they keep disappearing or simply do not exist , Crazy.

Most people say "boating accident"

a reply to: ratsinacage

" I believe its a token gesture given by the elite to the rabble to satiate their low brow ignorant belief that it somehow makes them free. "


A Token Gesture that one day could come back and Haunt them to an Early Grave . The one underlining Factor in any Revolution Born out of Desperation since the Dawn of Time for Men is Oppression by the Few Over the Many . There are those Today with Power who Understand that Very Well . Case in Point , those who are Constantly Attacking the Existence of the 2ND Amendment to the United States Constitution , and the Implications it Imposes on their Desire to Secure their Power over their Fellow Citizens in the U.S. in particular .

a reply to: neo96

Sheer Awesomeness!