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originally posted by: daskakik
a reply to: edmc^2
I could say that I can and have.
Then I could say that it has to do with an invisible reality that you have not caught a glimpse of yet.
Now what do we do?
originally posted by: TerryDon79
a reply to: edmc^2
Again with your circular, biased logic. I'll play your little algebra game too.
If X can't be created, X can't create Y, therefore X doesn't exist.
If X can't be created, X can't create Y, therefore X doesn't exist.
"God creates the universe but never God creates God. So by necessity, God must exist first in order to create the universe."
Begging the question, sometimes known by its Latin name petitio principii (meaning assuming the initial point), is a logical fallacy in which the writer or speaker assumes the statement under examination to be true. In other words, begging the question involves using a premise to support itself.
Conversely, if there was nothingness, absolute nothingness - from the beginning of time, then there was nothing to create. Hence no universe, no life as there was absolutely no one to create, nothing to "light the blue torch".
So by necessity, there MUST be a pre-existing life, the Prime Life, the Prime Mover, an uncreated Being to bring about the transformation of energy into matter. Full Stop.
originally posted by: TerryDon79
a reply to: edmc^2
All you did was use assumptions to "prove" your assumptions correct. That's exactly the same as what I did.
Oh wait. My assumption was that god doesn't exist. THAT'S why you think it's wrong.
ETA: TzarChasm said it better than me lol.
Behold The Future...Large Hadron Collider creates matter similar to 1st moments of universe at record-high energy. The CERN Large Hadron Collider (LHC) has broken a new record, smashing together lead-ions at the highest energy levels ever. The record-breaking collisions are aimed at studying a state of matter that existed shortly after the Big Bang took place. The latest accomplishment of the world's largest particle collider saw the LHC smash together lead-ions at 1,045 trillion electron-volts – two times higher than any previous experiment of this kind. “It is a tradition to collide ions over one month every year as part of our diverse research program at the LHC,” CERN Director General Rolf Heuer said in a press release. “This year however is special as we reach a new energy and will explore matter at an even earlier stage of our universe.” Scientists at CERN are aiming to examine the state of matter that was present just after the Big Bang took place. “Early in the life of our universe, for a few millionths of a second, matter was a very hot and very dense medium – a kind of primordial ‘soup’ of particles, mainly composed of fundamental particles known as quarks and gluons,” the press release states. That matter was a far cry from what is present in today's “cold universe.” “In today’s cold universe, the gluons 'glue' quarks together into the protons and neutrons that form bulk matter, including us, as well as other kinds of particles.” By increasing the energy of the lead-ion collisions, the LHC increased the volume and temperature of the “soupy matter,” quark and gluon plasma. The scientists were able to reach a temperature of several trillion degrees.
Yeah, that's pretty much what the "Big Bang theory" is all about. There was this tiny, tiny ball of a whole lot of of energy. When it started expanding and cooling, matter showed up...
The LHC has shown us how we can transform energy into matter.
It's pretty easy to accept, actually. And many do. And that's cool. But the fact that human physics shows that's what happens when a tiny, tiny ball of a whole lot of energy starts expanding doesn't really mean that someone made it happen. Unless your God is that tiny, tiny ball of a whole lot of energy.
why is it hard to accept and believe the existence of a higher being with the capability and ability to transform energy into matter?
originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: edmc^2
"God creates the universe but never God creates God. So by necessity, God must exist first in order to create the universe."
assumption 1: the universe was created
assumption 2: the universe was created by a god
assumption 3: the definition of said god
Begging the question, sometimes known by its Latin name petitio principii (meaning assuming the initial point), is a logical fallacy in which the writer or speaker assumes the statement under examination to be true. In other words, begging the question involves using a premise to support itself.
Conversely, if there was nothingness, absolute nothingness - from the beginning of time, then there was nothing to create. Hence no universe, no life as there was absolutely no one to create, nothing to "light the blue torch".
another misrepresentation. can you demonstrate that there was absolutely nothing at the very beginning of this universal cycle? the current understanding states that all of matter was focused into one very dense very small mass. that is not nothing, that is a tremendous amount of something in a very condensed state.
So by necessity, there MUST be a pre-existing life, the Prime Life, the Prime Mover, an uncreated Being to bring about the transformation of energy into matter. Full Stop.
refer to both the above fallacy and the list of assumptions i noted.
originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: edmc^2
Yeah, that's pretty much what the "Big Bang theory" is all about. There was this tiny, tiny ball of a whole lot of of energy...
The LHC has shown us how we can transform energy into matter.
It's pretty easy, actually. But the fact that human physics shows that's what happens when a tiny, tiny ball of a whole lot of energy starts expanding doesn't really mean that someone made it happen. Unless your God is that tiny, tiny ball of a whole lot of energy.
why is it hard to accept and believe the existence of a higher being with the capability and ability to transform energy into matter?
You are free to think that if you wish. It doesn't make you right.
Unless you've changed it, no, I didn't.
You missed my POINT Phage.
No. It takes smart people to attempt to create an inadequate model of the singularity.
It takes a genius mind to produce the LHC then use energy to create (or to transform it into) matter.
The singularity was not nothing.
Nothingness can't do this.
If you consider offering counterpoint to be an attack, so be it. But what you ask can't be done. Nor can you prove that unicorns do not exist.
Now, I've notice you've been attacking me for a while now without proving that my premise is false.
My "alternative" is that the Universe began with a singularity of energy. My "alternative" is that there is no reason or need to speculate beyond that, unless it is a need to validate one's belief system.
So may I ask, since you don't accept and popoing that an Always Existing Entity was responsible for the creation of the universe, what's your alternative other than a lazy cop-out I Don't Know?
originally posted by: flyingfish
a reply to: edmc^2
"An Always Existing Entity/Being - God."
How convenient, you get something from nothing.. Always?
Your logic is broken.
originally posted by: edmc^2
originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: edmc^2
"God creates the universe but never God creates God. So by necessity, God must exist first in order to create the universe."
assumption 1: the universe was created
assumption 2: the universe was created by a god
assumption 3: the definition of said god
Begging the question, sometimes known by its Latin name petitio principii (meaning assuming the initial point), is a logical fallacy in which the writer or speaker assumes the statement under examination to be true. In other words, begging the question involves using a premise to support itself.
Conversely, if there was nothingness, absolute nothingness - from the beginning of time, then there was nothing to create. Hence no universe, no life as there was absolutely no one to create, nothing to "light the blue torch".
another misrepresentation. can you demonstrate that there was absolutely nothing at the very beginning of this universal cycle? the current understanding states that all of matter was focused into one very dense very small mass. that is not nothing, that is a tremendous amount of something in a very condensed state.
So by necessity, there MUST be a pre-existing life, the Prime Life, the Prime Mover, an uncreated Being to bring about the transformation of energy into matter. Full Stop.
refer to both the above fallacy and the list of assumptions i noted.
Sorry but you obviously missed my point.
That is, there are only two realities or I should say paradigm to choose from when it comes to Origin Of the Universe.
1) An Always Existing Entity/Being - God
or
2) Nothingness, Absolute Nothingness.
The 1st is provable, whilst impossible on the 2nd.
My "alternative" is that the Universe began with a singularity of energy. My "alternative" is that there is no reason or need to speculate beyond that, unless it is a need to validate one's belief system.
there is no reason or need to speculate beyond that