The identity of Revelation 13's beast

originally posted by: TheLamb
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I thought I'd given you the clues you needed to identify the harlot. The mother and the prostitute? The answer is "Mary". Mary was the mother of Christ, and Mary was the prostitute Jesus saved. Both have been deified by the Catholic Church which breaks the first commandment, and in the case of the virgin the second as well. She sits between the beast (the vicar of Christ) on Earth (and by extension the Church) and God in heaven blocking the way. This is why she incurs the wrath of God.

This is an incorrect fallacious statement.The scriptures never said the woman many people errantly believe was Mary Magdalene was a prostitute .The belief that Mary Magdalene(or any of the Mary’s) was a whore are only religious defamation’s via extrapolation and perversion.

originally posted by: Sigismundus
a reply to: [post=19862251]

Any approach one takes to the Apocalypse of Yohanon the Levite ("Book of Revelation") dramatically affects one’s exegetical conclusions, it is necessary that I explain that the book itself demands a 'preterist' approach, meaning that the prophecies have al;ready been fulfilled in the 1st century CE. (from 'praeter' = Latin for 'already done'

Much of the language of the book makes free use of older prophecies of the OT since apparently it was believed that the age of the prophets was over (by 69 CE, the year the book was in circulation) = so the writer(s) midrashed old prophecies and dusted them off to put them to more current use, including the 4 horses of Zechariah and the 10 plagues of Egypt.

The most fundamental problem with the futurist approach is that it requires a very artificial reading of the many texts within the book itself that point to the imminent fulfillment of its prophecies.

The book opens and closes with declarations indicating that the things revealed in the book “must soon take place” (1:1; 22:6). It opens and closes with declarations indicating that “the time is near” (1:3; 22:10).

The book of Revelation does not begin in the way the pseudepigraphal Book of Enoch begins, with a statement to the effect that the content is not for the present generation, but for a remote generation that is still to come. The book of Revelation has direct relevance to the real historical first century churches to whom it was addressed, and the text of the book itself points to the imminent fulfillment of most of its prophecies.

The historicist approach does face difficulties at times (since we often cannot grasp where the author is taking the text) but is but is built on a more solid foundation than the so-called futurist approach which is fundamentally flawed as a method of interpreting the book because it brushes over the specificity found within the text.

Thus it would be a serious mistake to understand the images of Revelation as timeless symbols. Their character conforms to the contextuality of Revelation as a letter to the seven churches of Asia several of which were destroyed by an earthquake prior to 69 CE .

Admittedly the preterist approach robs the book of any contemporary significance which becomes a literary curiosity with little prophetic meaning.

Just my $.02

Ah yes, preterist and futurist. It has to be one or the other, doesn't it? That's the way it's always been done so it must be right. Why can't it be both? Or neither?

Revelation has multiple layers all intertwined through time. On one layer Revelation is completed. On another we have John's legacy which is still relevant today. We need to know he is a real man to believe him. On a third we have a warning of what might be and we have the events that will cause the warning to be effected. Then there is the fourth which is the narrative itself. That's the layer where the academics start and for some reason stop. It's by design and is a seal which needs to be broken to expose the other layers which are where the real truth lies. Revelation tests its reader before giving up its secrets. The preterist and futurist approaches only serve as examples of how not to pass the trial.

My rendering of Chapter 13 is from the third layer. It's only a part of the whole, bit it's a part people can identify with and maybe take notice of if they want to steer clear of God's wrath which can be halted by redirecting events and changing their actions. All I am here to do is to give them the chance.

By the way, where did you get AD69 from? Revelation was written at the end of AD99. That means the prophecies couldn't be completed in the first century.

originally posted by: Rex282

originally posted by: TheLamb
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I thought I'd given you the clues you needed to identify the harlot. The mother and the prostitute? The answer is "Mary". Mary was the mother of Christ, and Mary was the prostitute Jesus saved. Both have been deified by the Catholic Church which breaks the first commandment, and in the case of the virgin the second as well. She sits between the beast (the vicar of Christ) on Earth (and by extension the Church) and God in heaven blocking the way. This is why she incurs the wrath of God.

This is an incorrect fallacious statement.The scriptures never said the woman many people errantly believe was Mary Magdalene was a prostitute .The belief that Mary Magdalene(or any of the Mary’s) was a whore are only religious defamation’s via extrapolation and perversion.

Hey, it was a Catholic pope that made it official.

a reply to: TheLamb

You wrote: "Where did you get AD69 from? Revelation was written at the end of AD99. That means the prophecies couldn't be completed in the first century. "

Taking the praeterist approach, the number of the beast which is the number of a man is NRON QSR in Hebrew (666) or NRO QSR (616) referring to the emperor Nero who disappeared in 69 CE, the year of the 4 Emperors (Nero, Otho, Galba, Vitellius) and the book of Revelation seems to point to a tottering Roman Empire and the 42 months of occupation of Palestine b y Roman Troops where the followers of the Lamb would face the Beast (144,000 i.e. the perfect Daviddic Army with 12,000 from each tribe represented).

The Jewish War (66-72 CE) seems to be in the mind of the writer-compiler of the book. SInce 3 of the churches that are mentioned in the opening chapters were already destroyed by earthquakes prior to 99CE we would posit that the writer is writing to an audience that was still thriving (e.g. c. 60-69 CE).

There are a number of references in Revelation that line up with the 1st failed Jewish War against Rome in 66-72 CE, and I'll outline some of them in future postings - for the moment, it is clear to me that the writer of the Book of Revelation (Apocalypse of Yohanon the Levite) was written by a priest of a temple which is still standing but threatened by immanent destruction (c. 69 CE) where the court of the gentiles was already occupied by troops..

Stay tuned for more preterist evidence...

originally posted by: TheLamb

originally posted by: Rex282

originally posted by: TheLamb
......................................
I thought I'd given you the clues you needed to identify the harlot. The mother and the prostitute? The answer is "Mary". Mary was the mother of Christ, and Mary was the prostitute Jesus saved. Both have been deified by the Catholic Church which breaks the first commandment, and in the case of the virgin the second as well. She sits between the beast (the vicar of Christ) on Earth (and by extension the Church) and God in heaven blocking the way. This is why she incurs the wrath of God.

This is an incorrect fallacious statement.The scriptures never said the woman many people errantly believe was Mary Magdalene was a prostitute .The belief that Mary Magdalene(or any of the Mary’s) was a whore are only religious defamation’s via extrapolation and perversion.

Hey, it was a Catholic pope that made it official.

originally posted by: TheLamb

You are supposed to tune into the Holy Spirit to get the answers. .

Yet you shift the blame on a Pope(btw..... ALL Popes are Catholic) and tune in to what he said and are the one”interpreting" the scriptures saying it is from “G-d”and don’t even know what was written and disparaged Mary Magdalene with your religious rhetoric in the process .

a reply to: Sigismundus

John doesn't say seven OF the churches, but he addresses THE seven churches in Asia Minor. As far as I have been able to figure out, the only timeframe there were a total of seven churches in Asia Minor, was the few years between 62 and 66 AD.

In the time of Paul there were nine churches in Asia Minor. But in a series of earthquakes between 60 and 62 AD, Colossae, Laodicea, and Hierapolis were destroyed. Only Laodicea would end up being rebuilt, and for a few years there were a mere total of seven churches in Asia Minor. In 66 AD the First Jewish-Roman War started.

Though I do see how Nero probably made an effort to fulfil the dreaded order of Revelation, and how the Apocalypse was at least partially intended as some kind of war framework for the Zelots, many of the prophecies contained inside the Apocalypse are so huge and well, the preterist approach simply doesn't close it.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

You wrote : Though I do see how Nero probably made an effort to fulfill the dreaded order of Revelation, and how the Apocalypse was at least partially intended as some kind of war framework for the Zelots, many of the prophecies contained inside the Apocalypse are so huge and well, the preterist approach simply doesn't close it. "

Here are some more preterist evidence for an earlier date for the Apocalypse of Yohanon (c. 69 CE - in the middle of the 1st failed Jewish Revolt against Rome)

See Rev. 17:9-10ff

"This part requires a mind that has cunning: the seven heads are seven hills, upon which the woman sits. And there are seven kings, five are fallen, one existss, and the other has not yet appeared: but when he makes his appearance, he will only reign for a short time..."

The seven hills are the 7 hills of Rome (Aventine, Esquiline, Caelian, Quirinal, Capitoline, Aquitine & Palatine)

The five kings/emperors who have fallen are :

l. Julius Caesar
2. Augustus Caesar (aka Octavianus)
3. Tiberius Caesar
4. Gaius (aka Caligula) Caesar
5. Claudius Caesar

Following this line of reasoning, the "one king/emperor that presently exists" would then be number 6, Nero Caesar; and the Emperor who 'will only reign a short time" would therefore be number 7, Galba (reigned for 2 months in in 69 CE) .

One imagines this part of the book was written when Nero was thought to be dead in 69 CE and there was a scramble in Rome for a successor. (the year of the 4 Caesars), which occurred in the middle of the 1st Failed Jewish War against Rome (66-72 CE)

Unfortunately chapter 17 verse 11 is nearly unintelligible; its Greek holds mangled verse tenses (the whole book of Revelation is an example of some of the worst Greek in the NT apart from the Gospel of Mark - which makes any exact translation shaky at times...) :

'and the beast that [once] existed but no longer [survives], the same is the 8th, but he is [belongs] to the other 7 and goes to its destruction...which may be a reference to the idea of a Nero Redivivus, that is a 'Nero resurrected figure'.

The earliest written version of this legend is found in the Sibylline Oracles. It claims that Nero did not really die but fled to Parthia, where he would amass a large army and would return to Rome to destroy it. Dio Chrysostom, the Greek historian, wrote "seeing that even now everybody wishes [Nero] were still alive - and the great majority believe that he still is, although in a certain sense he has died not once but often - along with those who had been firmly convinced that he was still alive..."

I'll shoot over some more preterisms later this week for you to chew on, but in the meantime, reflect on the 1st Failed Jewish War against Rome (66-72CE) as the backdrop to the kind of Holy War language we find throughout the text of the Apocalypse ...

originally posted by: Sigismundus
Here are some more preterist evidence for an earlier date for the Apocalypse of Yohanon (c. 69 CE - in the middle of the 1st failed Jewish Revolt against Rome)

See Rev. 17:9-10ff

"This part requires a mind that has cunning: the seven heads are seven hills, upon which the woman sits. And there are seven kings, five are fallen, one existss, and the other has not yet appeared: but when he makes his appearance, he will only reign for a short time..."

The seven hills are the 7 hills of Rome (Aventine, Esquiline, Caelian, Quirinal, Capitoline, Aquitine & Palatine)

The five kings/emperors who have fallen are :

l. Julius Caesar
2. Augustus Caesar (aka Octavianus)
3. Tiberius Caesar
4. Gaius (aka Caligula) Caesar
5. Claudius Caesar

Following this line of reasoning, the "one king/emperor that presently exists" would then be number 6, Nero Caesar; and the Emperor who 'will only reign a short time" would therefore be number 7, Galba (reigned for 2 months in in 69 CE) .

I am aware of this, it's rather old news, and it is plausible that at least this bulk of Revelation was written later than the early sixties. My theory, is that at some point parts were added to Revelation and the part you refer to here is a typical interpolation that probably started out as marginal notes as people saw the prophecy seemed to fit with the Sybilla oracles, and some scribe then wrote a paragraph explaining the vision of the Beast based on these notes, and interpolated it as a sort of midrash to support prophecies of Rome's destruction and serve to explain these visions.

One imagines this part of the book was written when Nero was thought to be dead in 69 CE and there was a scramble in Rome for a successor. (the year of the 4 Caesars), which occurred in the middle of the 1st Failed Jewish War against Rome (66-72 CE)

Unfortunately chapter 17 verse 11 is nearly unintelligible; its Greek holds mangled verse tenses (the whole book of Revelation is an example of some of the worst Greek in the NT apart from the Gospel of Mark - which makes any exact translation shaky at times...) :

'and the beast that [once] existed but no longer [survives], the same is the 8th, but he is [belongs] to the other 7 and goes to its destruction...which may be a reference to the idea of a Nero Redivivus, that is a 'Nero resurrected figure'.

Also, note the obvious references to the Hermetic sciences here, it's in all the book, the numbers used especially. There are 8 notes in an octave, and the eighth and the first are identical in temperament. Check out the musical term, sheminith, it is often translated "the eighth" and refers to the do-re-mi scale. Likeways there were seven "wandering stars" visible to the naked eye, Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn. Earth is the eighth and through knowledge and wisdom, a wondering star like the seven, just like Caesar was seen as an embodiment of Mars (or even Sol in Mitraism), and these planets and stars were gods to the Romans. Caesar would thereby be the eighth god, but one of the seven, Mars. There were seven days in the week, and an eighth day that wasn't counted that occurred once a month. A fortnight - a day - and a fortnight-- counted up to one lunar month. There are tons of these "hepta-concepts" to make a silly word for it. They were obsessed with these systems and numerical patterns. It made them sort of divine.

The earliest written version of this legend is found in the Sibylline Oracles. It claims that Nero did not really die but fled to Parthia, where he would amass a large army and would return to Rome to destroy it. Dio Chrysostom, the Greek historian, wrote "seeing that even now everybody wishes [Nero] were still alive - and the great majority believe that he still is, although in a certain sense he has died not once but often - along with those who had been firmly convinced that he was still alive..."

Yes, as you could imagine these oracles and prophecies were followed as divine law, and made Caesar's destiny and fate was already fixed before he ascended into power. This made the Caesars' terms very predictable, for the oracles told them all in advance. Check out Daniel's prophecies in ch 11. He didn't see these prophecies in visions, he studied the astrological aspects of events he knew the Greeks and the others would be in accord with. Astrology is really a bunch of sworn oaths. Compare with the Jewish variant and what happened in the fields of Yisre'el, with Ahab and jehu.

I'll shoot over some more preterisms later this week for you to chew on, but in the meantime, reflect on the 1st Failed Jewish War against Rome (66-72CE) as the backdrop to the kind of Holy War language we find throughout the text of the Apocalypse ...

If anything, Revelation is a structured compendium built up of modules and bulks displaying a 'paradigmal' development. It draws on a ton of sources, not merely Jewish, but like you say also the oracles and other Graeco-Roman prophecies, many of which are lost forever. Like I said, I am aware of the preterist approach, and I see it as relevant and even plausible, for some of it, for like I said, it probably functioned as a kind of propaganda instrument for the Zelotes. 666 may simply be a subtle Zelote reference to the Fiscus Judaica, the Empire's special Jew Tax. All Jews had to pay a certain tax in order to trade and live.

Ever heard of Francis pope and the 1669 parcel of the new Rome, Bada tssss!!!

M.I.T. F*** yeah

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

You wrote: "My theory, is that at some point parts were added to Revelation and the part you refer to here is a typical interpolation that probably started out as marginal notes..."

I agree with you here - and you've made a very important point - these numerous added later comment notations are called marginalia (sg. marginalium) - and we see this process at work in most Apocalyptic literature (e.g. Daniel, Testament of Moses etc.) So, I would concur that this section about the '5 have fallen' is probably secondary (i.e. added into the margin by someone other than the original writer) despite the end of the book with its dire warnings to those who would tamper with the text at the end of the book

Apocalypse 22:18
"...and I solemnly declare to everyone who hears the words of prophecy written in this book: If anyone should add anything to what is written here, may God add to that person the plagues described herein..."

This contrasts with the blessing in the incipit to those who hear and follow the prophecies in the book:

Apocalypse 1:3
Blessed are all who listen to its message and obey what it says, for the time is near...

repeated at the end , Apoc. 22:7
Behold, I am coming very soon - Blessed are those who obey the words of prophecy written in this book

So we have the parallel 'Blessings and Curses' which parallel Moses in Deuteronomy 11:26-28

"Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse; a Blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the Lord your God, which I command you this day and a Curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the YHWH your clan god, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day..."

and

Deuteronomy 30:15
"Behold, this day I am giving you a choice between life and death, between prosperity and disaster..."

But tampering with hand copied texts by adding marginalia is a common feature of Apocalyptic Literature in general especially when it is dealing with political symbols of the copyists' (and their cleargy's) own day - to make the text seem to be relevant to the living audience.

I date the core of the book of Revelation to c. 69CE but there were copies in circulation decades later in different places and in different circles; one can identify these marginalia quite easily since they often break up the unlettered Greek phrases of the book which when removed make smoother sense...e.g. see the interpolation in brackets [ 'that old serpent who is the Devil, Satan]" and '[for 1000 years] in Apocalypse 20:2

"Then he seized the dragon [that old serpent, who is the devil, Satan] and bound him in chains [for a thousand years]...

My estimate is that there are nearly 50 of these additional comment marginalia' which later got copied into the hand written text and then copied over as part of the text by the next generation of copyists...

If they had printing presses or photocopier's and video recorders back in those days, we'd have less to discuss opn this topic I suppose...



"




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John alluded to a world power that would arise after Rome:

"They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is (Rome) the other is yet to come." (Revelation 17:10)

Rome was depicted by the 10 horned beast of Daniel:

"The fourth beast is a fourth kingdom that will appear on earth . It will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth, trampling it down and crushing it. The ten horns are ten kings who will come from this kingdom." (Daniel 7:23,24a)

The ten kings are the European nations that arose from the remnants of the Roman empire. But one king takes prominence on the world stage:

"After them another king will arise, different than the earlier ones; he will subdue three kings." (Daniel 7:24b)
"While I was thinking of the horns, there before me was another horn, a little one, which came up among them; and three of the first horns were uprooted before it." (Daniel 7:8)

Great Britain was the little horn that arose out of the nations of Rome. It defeated the Spanish Armada in 1588. It subdued the Netherlands, the then financial power. It eventually subdued France in the Napoleonic wars. Thus it "subdued three kings" out of Europe.

The true nature of the world power was not realized until World War 1, when it's former colony The United States became it's most powerful ally.

The beast of Revelation 13, is the representation of the dual world power of the United States and Great Britain. Similar to the two horned beast at Daniel 8:20 that represented the kings of Media and Persia, the two horned beast at Daniel 13 represents the United States and Great Britain.

It has "two horns like a lamb" (It comes in peace), but "speaks as a dragon" (Falsely represents itself)

The beast of Revelation 13, is the 7th world power John spoke about.

heavens to Betsy....Scripture tells of a guy that is in big trouble for imitating God on His throne....with the throne having wings of cherubim ....does like purple and scarlet ......and more......but boy is he going to get it....

originally posted by: Sigismundus
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

You wrote: "My theory, is that at some point parts were added to Revelation and the part you refer to here is a typical interpolation that probably started out as marginal notes..."

I agree with you here - and you've made a very important point - these numerous added later comment notations are called marginalia (sg. marginalium) - and we see this process at work in most Apocalyptic literature (e.g. Daniel, Testament of Moses etc.) So, I would concur that this section about the '5 have fallen' is probably secondary (i.e. added into the margin by someone other than the original writer) despite the end of the book with its dire warnings to those who would tamper with the text at the end of the book

Yes, and I am willing to bet the warning in the end of the book was also added much later, to avoid any more of this «Pharicee leaven» being added to the book, much like how most wine cellars have curses and ghost stories connected to them so people would fear stealing the wine, or like Egyptian tombs warded off intruders by claiming they would be cursed.

Like I've said a million times and you seem to be aware of the same, the Apocalypse is a mess. There are so many nomina sacra and other contractions, and the metaphors soak the text in ambiguity— its text— at best it resembles shorthand notes and many of the fragments are quite unintelligible. It's rather odd that a book promising Revelation and profound insight into divine secrets— should be shrouded in such mystery, ambiguity and metaphor. Perhaps the intended revelation was about forgery and of processing scripture and even changing language and editing lexica to fit doctrine? That's my best take on it. That's the greatest revelation involved in my own research of these scraps anyway.

I date the core of the book of Revelation to c. 69CE but there were copies in circulation decades later in different places and in different circles; one can identify these marginalia quite easily since they often break up the unlettered Greek phrases of the book which when removed make smoother sense...e.g. see the interpolation in brackets [ 'that old serpent who is the Devil, Satan]" and '[for 1000 years] in Apocalypse 20:2

Like I said earlier, I date the core no later than 66 AD and no earlier than 62 AD when there were a mere total of 7 churches in Asia Minor, the Temple was standing and Rome had not yet burned, there were no direct pogroms yet and there would still be a point in strengthening armed Jewish resistance. It was (obviously) originally written in Hebrew, but at some point it was translated into Greek, possibly by the Romans some time after 70 AD, in an effort to document and analyse the fabled book and the people (possibly the Zelotes) who likely used it as a way of transmitting encrypted messages and orders between the fronts and strongholds.

"Then he seized the dragon [that old serpent, who is the devil, Satan] and bound him in chains [for a thousand years]...

Much like how in the Gospel when untranslatable Hebrew words occur, like how the (later) scribes would add marginal explanations like when they call Jesus Rabbi or Rabbuni (ex. John 1:38), and there is a comma added, «which means Teacher», or how Friedman ripped apart the Torah to reveal its different sources (ex. the story of Abraham sacrificing Isaac).

My estimate is that there are nearly 50 of these additional comment marginalia' which later got copied into the hand written text and then copied over as part of the text by the next generation of copyists...

My thoughts exactly. One of these days I might even make an effort to try and reestablish the original Hebrew and bring back the original language of John the Scribe's fabled «Kampf Schrift».

If they had printing presses or photocopier's and video recorders back in those days, we'd have less to discuss opn this topic I suppose...

Aye, and I would have one hobby less I presume....

ETA: That said, these later added marginalia and commas, interpolations and notes may indeed serve the intents of the writer, they don't have to be forgeries at all, well some obviously are, but when translating texts such as these, such marginal notes are essential, since there are differing cultures and lexica involved and the audience needs explaining certain foreign concepts and terms.

a reply to: Sigismundus

For fun, compare Isaiah 16:1 in LXX with the BHS, you're in for a surprise Twisting Bibles to fit doctrine through deliberate mistranslation is not a new idea. It seems Rome's main strategy against Judaism and later the Nazaretans— was to translate their crap into Greek with a handful lexical modifications, and finally destroy all extant Hebrew sources.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

You wrote "... twisting Bibles to fit doctrine through deliberate mistranslation is not a new idea. It seems Rome's main strategy against Judaism and later the Nazaretans— was to translate their crap into Greek with a handful lexical modifications, and finally destroy all extant Hebrew sources..."

Sad but very true - Seems Jeremiah was right on when he spoke of "the lying pen of the scribes" in Jer. 8:8 !!

originally posted by: Sigismundus
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

You wrote "... twisting Bibles to fit doctrine through deliberate mistranslation is not a new idea. It seems Rome's main strategy against Judaism and later the Nazaretans— was to translate their crap into Greek with a handful lexical modifications, and finally destroy all extant Hebrew sources..."

Sad but very true

Another thing people tend to forget or simply are unable or unwilling to comprehend or agree with, is that these books were/are engines of war.

#1 Through moral doctrine make the whole army be in accord with its leaders (Sun Tsu)
#2 Through promise of afterlife and honor make them willing to die «if necessary» (CNN)

If you own a copy of Sefer Yetzirah or the Bahir, you should probably also know that you own a soldier's manual in martial arts and fencing, as well as the key of several ciphers and a few other things useful in times of war.

These ancient books are codes of warfare.

- Seems Jeremiah was right on when he spoke of "the lying pen of the scribes" in Jer. 8:8 !!

Very much so, I'm afraid. The redaction of Jeremiah also used a few atbash encrypted codes to refer to Babylon and Babylonians, so that's the forces behind those scribes' forgeries right there. The redaction of John [how about calling him] Patmoses reused or recycled the same old engines used against Egypt and Babylon only he directed them against Rome. The first battle in any war is that of conquering the hearts and minds of your soldiers, an invasion of the soldiers' selves so to speak, turning them into effective instruments of war in 100% accord with their leaders, the seed of any war is like glowing coal and reads loyalty and sadly truth is typically the first to fall.

Here's a few more seeds. What happens if you add or delete an n to Gr. ἐστάθη «Estathe» (ex. NA28 in Re 12:17 Eng. "He stood") such as is the case with Textus Receptus which has Gr. ἐστάθην «Estathen» (Eng. "I stood") and moves the sentence to Re 13:1? Keep in mind that Textus Receptus was the main foundation of the English and Protestant Church. For others unfamiliar with Greek compare KJV which follows Textus Receptus vs. e. ESV or another modern text critical version of the text. 616 vs. 666 is another. Editing one single letter turns the whole book and religion upside down.

originally posted by: TheLamb

originally posted by: WeRpeons
Whew, some people have too much time on their hands! How do they come up with this stuff? This is the biggest problem I have with the bible. Everyone interprets it to conform to their own beliefs. You have to ask yourself why wasn't God's word written clearly and concise? Does he like to create puzzles and watch us try to put the pieces together? We wouldn't have all these radical beliefs and numerous religions if the scriptures clearly defined God's exact intentions for mankind.

The bible itself could be a deception to cause division and purposely deceive. If you believe in God as being all knowing, he would have realized before the prophets wrote these verses how his word would be twisted and used radically to cause war and strife in the world.

Make life simple, just follow the "golden rule," One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself. Maybe that one line could have united and created peace in this world. Sometimes deception is looking us right in the face.

Yes, God likes a good puzzle. If is solved it demonstrates that His creation is capable of self improvement which reflects on His ability as a Creator. It makes Him very happy. Most tackle them intellectually which is why there are so many interpretations, all wrong. You are supposed to tune into the Holy Spirit to get the answers. You get closer to God that way as well as showing improvement. The wars and strife are a set back from which we are supposed to learn and we are back to a self developing creation.

Treating others as oneself is but a step on the path to God. If you stop there you stagnate.

Self-improvement - like searching for wisdom? Yea, God was really happy with Adam for trying to improve himself. The Old Testament tells you how to live and if you veer from the path you will be killed. There is no room for adaptation. Christians are hilarious.