It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.
Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.
Thank you.
Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.
originally posted by: TheLamb
......................................
I thought I'd given you the clues you needed to identify the harlot. The mother and the prostitute? The answer is "Mary". Mary was the mother of Christ, and Mary was the prostitute Jesus saved. Both have been deified by the Catholic Church which breaks the first commandment, and in the case of the virgin the second as well. She sits between the beast (the vicar of Christ) on Earth (and by extension the Church) and God in heaven blocking the way. This is why she incurs the wrath of God.
originally posted by: Sigismundus
a reply to: [post=19862251]
Any approach one takes to the Apocalypse of Yohanon the Levite ("Book of Revelation") dramatically affects one’s exegetical conclusions, it is necessary that I explain that the book itself demands a 'preterist' approach, meaning that the prophecies have al;ready been fulfilled in the 1st century CE. (from 'praeter' = Latin for 'already done'
Much of the language of the book makes free use of older prophecies of the OT since apparently it was believed that the age of the prophets was over (by 69 CE, the year the book was in circulation) = so the writer(s) midrashed old prophecies and dusted them off to put them to more current use, including the 4 horses of Zechariah and the 10 plagues of Egypt.
The most fundamental problem with the futurist approach is that it requires a very artificial reading of the many texts within the book itself that point to the imminent fulfillment of its prophecies.
The book opens and closes with declarations indicating that the things revealed in the book “must soon take place” (1:1; 22:6). It opens and closes with declarations indicating that “the time is near” (1:3; 22:10).
The book of Revelation does not begin in the way the pseudepigraphal Book of Enoch begins, with a statement to the effect that the content is not for the present generation, but for a remote generation that is still to come. The book of Revelation has direct relevance to the real historical first century churches to whom it was addressed, and the text of the book itself points to the imminent fulfillment of most of its prophecies.
The historicist approach does face difficulties at times (since we often cannot grasp where the author is taking the text) but is but is built on a more solid foundation than the so-called futurist approach which is fundamentally flawed as a method of interpreting the book because it brushes over the specificity found within the text.
Thus it would be a serious mistake to understand the images of Revelation as timeless symbols. Their character conforms to the contextuality of Revelation as a letter to the seven churches of Asia several of which were destroyed by an earthquake prior to 69 CE .
Admittedly the preterist approach robs the book of any contemporary significance which becomes a literary curiosity with little prophetic meaning.
Just my $.02
originally posted by: Rex282
originally posted by: TheLamb
......................................
I thought I'd given you the clues you needed to identify the harlot. The mother and the prostitute? The answer is "Mary". Mary was the mother of Christ, and Mary was the prostitute Jesus saved. Both have been deified by the Catholic Church which breaks the first commandment, and in the case of the virgin the second as well. She sits between the beast (the vicar of Christ) on Earth (and by extension the Church) and God in heaven blocking the way. This is why she incurs the wrath of God.
This is an incorrect fallacious statement.The scriptures never said the woman many people errantly believe was Mary Magdalene was a prostitute .The belief that Mary Magdalene(or any of the Mary’s) was a whore are only religious defamation’s via extrapolation and perversion.
originally posted by: TheLamb
originally posted by: Rex282
originally posted by: TheLamb
......................................
I thought I'd given you the clues you needed to identify the harlot. The mother and the prostitute? The answer is "Mary". Mary was the mother of Christ, and Mary was the prostitute Jesus saved. Both have been deified by the Catholic Church which breaks the first commandment, and in the case of the virgin the second as well. She sits between the beast (the vicar of Christ) on Earth (and by extension the Church) and God in heaven blocking the way. This is why she incurs the wrath of God.
This is an incorrect fallacious statement.The scriptures never said the woman many people errantly believe was Mary Magdalene was a prostitute .The belief that Mary Magdalene(or any of the Mary’s) was a whore are only religious defamation’s via extrapolation and perversion.
Hey, it was a Catholic pope that made it official.
originally posted by: TheLamb
You are supposed to tune into the Holy Spirit to get the answers. .
originally posted by: Sigismundus
Here are some more preterist evidence for an earlier date for the Apocalypse of Yohanon (c. 69 CE - in the middle of the 1st failed Jewish Revolt against Rome)
See Rev. 17:9-10ff
"This part requires a mind that has cunning: the seven heads are seven hills, upon which the woman sits. And there are seven kings, five are fallen, one existss, and the other has not yet appeared: but when he makes his appearance, he will only reign for a short time..."
The seven hills are the 7 hills of Rome (Aventine, Esquiline, Caelian, Quirinal, Capitoline, Aquitine & Palatine)
The five kings/emperors who have fallen are :
l. Julius Caesar
2. Augustus Caesar (aka Octavianus)
3. Tiberius Caesar
4. Gaius (aka Caligula) Caesar
5. Claudius Caesar
Following this line of reasoning, the "one king/emperor that presently exists" would then be number 6, Nero Caesar; and the Emperor who 'will only reign a short time" would therefore be number 7, Galba (reigned for 2 months in in 69 CE) .
One imagines this part of the book was written when Nero was thought to be dead in 69 CE and there was a scramble in Rome for a successor. (the year of the 4 Caesars), which occurred in the middle of the 1st Failed Jewish War against Rome (66-72 CE)
Unfortunately chapter 17 verse 11 is nearly unintelligible; its Greek holds mangled verse tenses (the whole book of Revelation is an example of some of the worst Greek in the NT apart from the Gospel of Mark - which makes any exact translation shaky at times...) :
'and the beast that [once] existed but no longer [survives], the same is the 8th, but he is [belongs] to the other 7 and goes to its destruction...which may be a reference to the idea of a Nero Redivivus, that is a 'Nero resurrected figure'.
The earliest written version of this legend is found in the Sibylline Oracles. It claims that Nero did not really die but fled to Parthia, where he would amass a large army and would return to Rome to destroy it. Dio Chrysostom, the Greek historian, wrote "seeing that even now everybody wishes [Nero] were still alive - and the great majority believe that he still is, although in a certain sense he has died not once but often - along with those who had been firmly convinced that he was still alive..."
I'll shoot over some more preterisms later this week for you to chew on, but in the meantime, reflect on the 1st Failed Jewish War against Rome (66-72CE) as the backdrop to the kind of Holy War language we find throughout the text of the Apocalypse ...
originally posted by: Sigismundus
a reply to: Utnapisjtim
You wrote: "My theory, is that at some point parts were added to Revelation and the part you refer to here is a typical interpolation that probably started out as marginal notes..."
I agree with you here - and you've made a very important point - these numerous added later comment notations are called marginalia (sg. marginalium) - and we see this process at work in most Apocalyptic literature (e.g. Daniel, Testament of Moses etc.) So, I would concur that this section about the '5 have fallen' is probably secondary (i.e. added into the margin by someone other than the original writer) despite the end of the book with its dire warnings to those who would tamper with the text at the end of the book
I date the core of the book of Revelation to c. 69CE but there were copies in circulation decades later in different places and in different circles; one can identify these marginalia quite easily since they often break up the unlettered Greek phrases of the book which when removed make smoother sense...e.g. see the interpolation in brackets [ 'that old serpent who is the Devil, Satan]" and '[for 1000 years] in Apocalypse 20:2
"Then he seized the dragon [that old serpent, who is the devil, Satan] and bound him in chains [for a thousand years]...
My estimate is that there are nearly 50 of these additional comment marginalia' which later got copied into the hand written text and then copied over as part of the text by the next generation of copyists...
If they had printing presses or photocopier's and video recorders back in those days, we'd have less to discuss opn this topic I suppose...
originally posted by: Sigismundus
a reply to: Utnapisjtim
You wrote "... twisting Bibles to fit doctrine through deliberate mistranslation is not a new idea. It seems Rome's main strategy against Judaism and later the Nazaretans— was to translate their crap into Greek with a handful lexical modifications, and finally destroy all extant Hebrew sources..."
Sad but very true
- Seems Jeremiah was right on when he spoke of "the lying pen of the scribes" in Jer. 8:8 !!
originally posted by: TheLamb
originally posted by: WeRpeons
Whew, some people have too much time on their hands! How do they come up with this stuff? This is the biggest problem I have with the bible. Everyone interprets it to conform to their own beliefs. You have to ask yourself why wasn't God's word written clearly and concise? Does he like to create puzzles and watch us try to put the pieces together? We wouldn't have all these radical beliefs and numerous religions if the scriptures clearly defined God's exact intentions for mankind.
The bible itself could be a deception to cause division and purposely deceive. If you believe in God as being all knowing, he would have realized before the prophets wrote these verses how his word would be twisted and used radically to cause war and strife in the world.
Make life simple, just follow the "golden rule," One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself. Maybe that one line could have united and created peace in this world. Sometimes deception is looking us right in the face.
Yes, God likes a good puzzle. If is solved it demonstrates that His creation is capable of self improvement which reflects on His ability as a Creator. It makes Him very happy. Most tackle them intellectually which is why there are so many interpretations, all wrong. You are supposed to tune into the Holy Spirit to get the answers. You get closer to God that way as well as showing improvement. The wars and strife are a set back from which we are supposed to learn and we are back to a self developing creation.
Treating others as oneself is but a step on the path to God. If you stop there you stagnate.