What came first, Nothing or Something?

originally posted by: Korg Trinity
Not true.

Assuming (an assumption I disagree with) we are the first sentient life to contemplate reality, the universe existed for 13.2 billion years before we existed to have any idea about what existence is.

But the fabric of Time is Unbroken. The Idea of Nothing existed within Time which came into being with the first bit of 'Something' that existed in Time.

To put it another way, the Idea of the first particle exists in one place in Time because the first particle once existed in Space, and the Idea of Nothing exists in another place thanks to Minds, but they both exist simultaneously in the fabric and dimension of Time. We can be certain of that.

Therefore the Idea of Nothing existed simultaneously with the Idea of the first particle in Time, too. From the 'perspective' of the Idea of the first particle, the Idea of Nothing exists in the future -- a direction 'ahead, so to speak. From the 'perspective' of the Idea of Nothing, the Idea of the first particle exists in the past -- a direction 'behind.'

But both exist somewhere in the fabric and dimension of Time simultaneously.

Relatives and potentials....

Nothing is opposite of something (everything?).

Nothing is the potential for everything, and therefore is everything.

We humans really have no idea what to do with what it is we have as progress is almost always quite the opposite of what we refer to it as.

Bla Bla Bla Bla....

And then there is that death thing that scares the crap out of everyone.

Death is another beginning in the grand recycling scheme that is the universe.

There is nothing to fear, but I have been conditioned to fear it so I seek comfort from the fear of the inevitable so somebody else lives better than I ever will without having to work for it as hard as I had to....

Sceme?, Scam?, Both and neither.

Nullisis.

Nobody wins and nobody loses.

originally posted by: MotherMayEye

originally posted by: Korg Trinity
Not true.

Assuming (an assumption I disagree with) we are the first sentient life to contemplate reality, the universe existed for 13.2 billion years before we existed to have any idea about what existence is.

But the fabric of Time is Unbroken. The Idea of Nothing existed within Time which came into being with the first bit of 'Something' that existed in Time..

The concept of time is not as we experience it, the past the present and the future all exist simultaneously.

Its kind of hard to get your head around but that is the result of Relativity, there is no getting around it.

originally posted by: MyHappyDogShiner

Nobody wins and nobody loses.

Quite... a bit like the universe... it bother has a beginning and an end and also does not.

originally posted by: Korg Trinity

The concept of time is not as we experience it, the past the present and the future all exist simultaneously.

Its kind of hard to get your head around but that is the result of Relativity, there is no getting around it.

Yes, It is all relative.

I haven't wrapped my head around the perception of Time. All I can do is state it as an Idea because all the evidence says that our perception of Time is not the only way to perceive it.

Minds were made to perceive Something in Space, contemplate it all, and then place the Idea of Nothing in Time. What happens next -- in the sole dimension of Time -- is The Next Idea and it materialized itself as an Idea because our 'destiny' to have the Idea of Nothing had to happen and then did.

And using this reasoning...a Mind was responsible for the Universe of Everything -- it just didn't know it.

It was probably a woman though.

a reply to: MotherMayEye
Time is an idea that happens - time cannot be perceived - can you see time? Can you hear time?
The idea of time happens because the mind cannot do anything outside of time - so the mind creates the illusion that there is something other than what is happening (now).
The mind creates the illusion of time and space.

What is there really?
What is happening right now?
Can an idea happen in the past or future?

All concepts (ideas) arise now but now is non conceptual.

originally posted by: Itisnowagain
Time is an idea that happens - time cannot be perceived - can you see time? Can you hear time?
The idea of time happens because the mind cannot do anything outside of time - so the mind creates the illusion that there is something other than what is happening (now).
.

The idea of time happens because the mind cannot do anything outside of time - so the mind PERCEIVES it.

That is how we perceive Time.

But it would seem the Mind could do something outside of Space.

originally posted by: Itisnowagain
Time is an idea that happens - time cannot be perceived - can you see time? Can you hear time?
The idea of time happens because the mind cannot do anything outside of time - so the mind creates the illusion that there is something other than what is happening (now).

By the way, Time is an Idea that exists outside of Minds.

You sound like you believe it's an illusion, but Science has proven it is an actual dimension.

originally posted by: MyHappyDogShiner
Death is another beginning in the grand recycling scheme that is the universe.

There is nothing to fear, but I have been conditioned to fear it so I seek comfort from the fear of the inevitable so somebody else lives better than I ever will without having to work for it as hard as I had to....

We fear it because we don't understand an existence in the dimension of Time only.

Death is relative to life. And since we have to have an Idea of Death relative to the Idea of Life, Death manifests new Ideas that exist only in the dimension of Time.

originally posted by: MotherMayEye

originally posted by: Vroomfondel
I understand the concept of nothing. But nothing changed into something. Change requires a few things. It needs something to change, and a catalyst to make that change happen. If either of those existed, there never was 'nothing'. Without them, there could be no change. There could never be 'nothing'. So there was something. What was it, where did it come from, and when did it get here?

Its only 9 AM and I need a beer...

Nothing cannot change. It cannot produce an Idea of itself. Something caused the Idea of Nothing to exist in Minds that could perceive Something and therefore perceive the Idea of Something. Then those Minds created the Idea of Nothing by comparison -- like Math as you said.

And that brought the Idea of Nothing into co-existence with the Idea of Something in the fabric of the dimension of Time.

Ok. If we accept that as a reasonable explanation for the 'concept' of nothing, how does that translate into the real world? Explaining the concept is one thing. How do you explain the real world event of something appearing out of nothing? If, as you say, nothing cannot change, where did 'something' come from?

Purely in concept, the idea of nothing works fine. But in real world terms it does not. At least not by any method of definition we currently employ.

originally posted by: MotherMayEye

By the way, Time is an Idea that exists outside of Minds.

Do ideas exist outside of a mind?

originally posted by: Vroomfondel
Ok. If we accept that as a reasonable explanation for the 'concept' of nothing, how does that translate into the real world? Explaining the concept is one thing. How do you explain the real world event of something appearing out of nothing? If, as you say, nothing cannot change, where did 'something' come from?

Purely in concept, the idea of nothing works fine. But in real world terms it does not. At least not by any method of definition we currently employ.

We are talking about Ideas.

Ideas have a dual nature.

There are Ideas that manifest like magic to bring the Idea into existence spontaneously. And each Idea is prompted to exist by an Idea that manifested before it.

I used parents as an example. Because a sperm and an egg exist, they bring other Ideas into being. For example, what would happen if they collided? An idea manifests. This Idea is the egg is fertilized with a combination of ideas from both the sperm and the egg and the new Idea 'materializes' like magic. Cells divide and then multiply materializing the whole new IDEA. A unique child. That child brings new IDEAS in its sperm/egg, etc...

We see IDEAS materialize all the time from other IDEAS. We know it happens.

Everything MATERIALIZED out of the IDEA of SOMETHING -- because SOMETHING can materialize and can cause the Idea of Nothing to Exist in the dimension of TIME, too.

At the core, it is impossible for there not to be both an Idea of Something AND an Idea of Nothing. You cannot have one Idea without the other. Nothing couldn't manifest itself as an Idea -- so Something did it for it and brought an Idea of itself into existence at the same time.

It's hard to get past the concept that our ideas don't materialize in Space and that they only manifest as fleeting thoughts in TIME. AND that these facts do not negate the fact that Ideas which were never in Minds first did materialize and cause other Ideas to materialize.

originally posted by: MotherMayEye

originally posted by: Itisnowagain
Time is an idea that happens - time cannot be perceived - can you see time? Can you hear time?
The idea of time happens because the mind cannot do anything outside of time - so the mind creates the illusion that there is something other than what is happening (now).
.

The idea of time happens because the mind cannot do anything outside of time - so the mind PERCEIVES it.

The mind IS time. The mind cannot perceive - the mind is thoughts speaking about 'things in time and space' - the mind tells stories about 'what happened' (past) or about 'what might happen' (future) - but thought cannot speak about 'what IS happening'. 'What IS' gets missed or corrupted by the thoughts of 'what is not happening'.
Mind invents time so it can feel as though there is someone doing something - or someone trying to become something - someone going somewhere.
Mind creates the illusion that life is made of separate things in time and space but really there is just what is happening.
This is life simply happening.

originally posted by: Itisnowagain

originally posted by: MotherMayEye

By the way, Time is an Idea that exists outside of Minds.

Do ideas exist outside of a mind?

Yes. Like the moon. We can contemplate the idea of the moon. But it was an Idea that materialized out of other Ideas. The Idea of the moon is not a unique Idea born in our Minds. It's an Idea because it exists in the dimension of Space, as well as Time.

Ideas in Minds exist only in Time. We can create something from them, but they don't spontaneously materialize.

originally posted by: Itisnowagain
The mind IS time. The mind cannot perceive - the mind is thoughts speaking about 'things in time and space' - the mind tells stories about 'what happened' (past) or about 'what might happen' (future) - but thought cannot speak about 'what IS happening'. 'What IS' gets missed or corrupted by the thoughts of 'what is not happening'.
Mind invents time so it can feel as though there is someone doing something - or someone trying to become something - someone going somewhere.
Mind creates the illusion that life is made of separate things in time and space but really there is just what is happening.
This is life simply happening.

The mind does not invent Time. Science has proven it is an actual dimension. But I would agree that the Mind is very much relegated to the dimension of Time. That's why the Mind perceives Time.

And, yes, we perceive Time. We can measure it.

originally posted by: MotherMayEye


Yes. Like the moon. We can contemplate the idea of the moon. But it was an Idea that materialized out of other Ideas. The Idea of the moon is not a unique Idea born in our Minds. It's an Idea because it exists in the dimension of Space, as well as Time.

The moon can be seen. It actually appears as a real thing - I do not understand why you refer to the moon as an idea.
The word moon is just a word and there can be ideas about the moon but the moon can be seen.
Can you see the past?

originally posted by: Itisnowagain
The moon can be seen. It actually appears as a real thing - I do not understand why you refer to the moon as an idea.
The word moon is just a word and there can be ideas about the moon but the moon can be seen.
Can you see the past?

Yes, the moon is a thing that can be observed or not observed but either way, it's a unique idea that exists. Inside and/or outside of minds.

The idea of the moon does not exist because it was somehow an Idea in a mind first. Minds simply 'discovered' the Idea of the moon.

In fact, there are ideas reflected throughout the universe that were never in any mind.

To put it another way, someone had an idea of a car and how to build a car. They build the car, but does the Idea of the car suddenly cease to exist because it is a 'thing?'

No, the Idea still exists and more cars could be created from the same Idea.

originally posted by: MotherMayEye

That's why the Mind perceives Time.

The mind imagines time, it does not perceive it, mind creates the illusion that there is somewhere other than what is here now.

And, yes, we perceive Time. We can measure it.

The mind is measuring from here to where?

originally posted by: Itisnowagain
The mind imagines time, it does not perceive it, mind creates the illusion that there is somewhere other than what is here now.

The mind is measuring from here to where?

Agree to Disagree. Time is an actual dimension according to the laws of physics.

We measure Time from one moment to the next. One second to the next. One minute to the next. etc...

a reply to: MotherMayEye
It is now now so where are you going to go to put the other end of the measuring stick?
Some other time is not here - except as an idea that mind has now.