When, does life become valuable?

In this thread we are talking about abortion, and YES i am a pro life, atheist on bad days, agnostic on good. I do not feel i will get appropriate criticism or philosophical dialogue in that thread, therefore i will post here, The question is so dynamic,has so many points of view, and can be drawn and related in any way. So i ask you here, this is what i believe pertaining to life, please do not withhold your criticism. CHEERS

I believe atheism/agnosticism argues against abortion,or atheism/agnosticism in the truest sense.that which has potential has value, and that is where meaning is derived from.

I believe that much of modern day science and religions argue for nihilism,whether that be thinly veiled or overt.

Understand that the Big Bang had meaning because the potential it created to bare your consciousness though you were not conscious then, the merit of your beliefs are indisputable because of a non conscious arbitrary potential.

Thwarting potential, has consequences as well, but we are really talking about determinism or free will, this argument could go on and on but I will choose free will, and that begins at the point at which it potentially could begin.

Does consciousness come before potential? If you say yes then God must exist, life has a purpose that is defined by potential which therefor makes it objectively equal.

Something must be actionable for it to take action which describes the process of realized potentials, consciousness does not supersede this order, though it can take action to do so, but it is wrong in the most objective sense man can realize.

Free will says, things are right or wrong or have meaning,determinism says everything is just what it is,and things have happened because it just happens. The later says a preordained guiding will or inevitability, the former says potential has value.

If you wish to argue equality,you must argue free will. Free will has meaning because of its potentials, life begins at the point it has potential therefor it is equal.

That's the math.



Is that preordained? Or is it a wonder of ever changing and realized potentials?

Do not fall into nihilism, no matter where it approaches or how sentimental it seems.

Life is an industrial by-product of DNA. It has no intrinsic value. It is only selfishly valued by the living, in that we generally only value our own lives and the lives of our loved ones, while other living things are simply there to help keep us alive. How many chickens (or living plant cells, if you're a vegan), have to die to keep me alive for the length of my existence? Many, many chickens, all of which have a life that is arguably just as "important" as mine.

It can be argued that without consciousness the universe would cease to exist, since reality and experience go hand in hand. And if there was nobody around to experience reality, there would be nobody around to miss it. So nothing would be lost.

a reply to: TechniXcality

Pro-choice, here.

I think it's actually pretty simple... if you had a womb, you likely would too (heck, I'm assuming there from your avatar). I actually don't have a womb, either, but I am capable of being empathetic for those that do.

The rights go to those with bodies already here. Period... or lack of one (joke) ...and potentials don't vote (unless Diebold is involved).

It doesn't mean I think abortion is great... or that philosophical arguments cannot be made against it... it means I believe with all my soul that it is necessary to have the determination over your own person and to control what your next 18 years will be like. It doesn't mean we cannot try to teach ways to avoid it, though, and to value life, etc.

Eta: oh and I think life is as valuable as life thinks it is... some days, not so much... ever been overrun with termite queens erupting from a wood fixture one rainy night? Life is cheap, then, and fit for the vacuum... but it's relative.

a reply to: TechniXcality
"When does life become valuable". When a soul enters that body it does so at birth with that body the first intake of oxygen and the resulting yelp/cry of why did I agree to this, why am I here. Without a soul entering at the point the baby will be still born. It is very rare that a soul will enter a fetus in gestation as the confinement of the womb would damage their potential. Some say SIDS deaths are the result of a soul reneging on its initial contract (bailing).

so, the big bang resulted in potential of the life we have now. but, what if, that big bang destroyed worlds, that contained life and well it was that matter and energy that was formed into our universe? and well, what if that previous life consisted of sentient beings advanced and knowledgeable to prevent that big bang from happening....
what if the big bang didn't destroy those sentient beings but only sent them back to their equilivalent of the stone age? and what if those sentient beings were in actuality us, facing the next big bang.
do you really think for an instance that we would think about the potentials the destruction of our civilization would bring about in such a circumstance?
well for some women, a pregnancy can also offer a great deal of destruction to them. the destruction of their life, a destruction of their health, the destruction of their finances, the destruction of their families.
we wouldn't think twice about saving our civilization, even if we knew our destruction would bring about a new universe with new lifeforms. we would do whatever was in our power to stop it from happening.
we wouldn't think twice about saving our country from an enemy that we saw as a threat...even a made up imaginary one. we wouldn't consider the potential of all those kids that got mangled from our bombs and drones.

why do you think women would, or should act any differently when a pregnancy is seen as a threat?

originally posted by: TechniXcality

appropriate criticism or philosophical dialogue

I wish I could give you the above mentioned at the moment, to tired, but I do applaud you for your pursuit.
To seek critique and honest dialogue is the highest form of our capacity as humans.

Does consciousness come before potential? If you say yes then God must exist, life has a purpose that is defined by potential which therefor makes it objectively equal.

I think life precedes consciousness and potential is determined by social norms. Good point though. Up for discussion.

If you wish to argue equality,you must argue free will. Free will has meaning because of its potentials, life begins at the point it has potential therefor it is equal.

Forgive me for the anecdotal character of this.
When I was very young I worked in a facility which housed the so called "retarded" citizens. I was assigned to the closed ward. Our "Family" were all potentially lethal in their behavior or at the best non-responsive.
To make a long story short, they were treated with the utmost respect.
This was pre-abortion on demand times.

But my point here is, these beings n e v e r had free will nor potential (as our world views it) but they were still deemed equal to receive compassionate care.

No one questioned their right to exist back then.

WIS



Your title is "When does life become valuable?"
Perhaps it is before we can comprehend it?

What's the point? We all value different things based on different criteria. Mostly instead of asking the question to other people you should ask yourself. Your perceptions of reality are about as objective as one can get in the universe.

originally posted by: Baddogma
a reply to: TechniXcality

I believe with all my soul that it is necessary to have the determination over your own person and to control what your next 18 years will be like.

I agree with that completely. You overlook the choices that lead to the pregnancy in the first place though. Once decisions have been made effecting the lives of others, we are accountable for them. Creating a new life is a huge decision, no matter how lightly it's taken. The pro-choice standpoint isn't about making decision's for yourself; it's about not being responsible for your child as long as it's in your womb.

originally posted by: Baddogma
a reply to: TechniXcality
The rights go to those with bodies already here.

You may not see it, but the body in the womb is already here.

a reply to: TechniXcality

I think life always has some intrinsic value; I rely mainly on instinct to gauge the amount. It doesn't bother me to much that I kill to eat, or step on bugs by accident; although I make some effort to avoid stepping on bugs. I despise anyone who would kill even an insect just for fun though. I kill mosquitoes just for biting me. Is the BTK killer's life worth more than a mosquito? Personally, I don't think so.

On the value of potential: if someone sends something in the mail, is it OK to steal it before it's received? Would it be OK as long as nobody knew? The person who sent it wouldn't miss it. The person who was to receive it wouldn't know they lost anything.



I've always seen determinism and free will as compatible. I've elaborated on that in this thread: here.

VP pro- choice doesn't mean that at all, that's just how you see it, which is wrong.

a reply to: lifecitizen

Were you referencing me? Who is 'vp'? Pro-choice doesn't mean what?

a reply to: TechniXcality

did you eat fortune cookies again

a reply to: Layaly

Haha! Yup those fortune cookies are driving me mad! You should of participated in that discussion before it turned into a drunk pub, lol

a reply to: TechniXcality

i am still at the pub !! reading some of the shait u wrote am tottally trippin balls from it

a reply to: Layaly

You know I actually got applauded for that thread unfortunately, it went way over everyone's head and I was to drunk to continue lmao, tell me what you think. Someone might of dosed my fortune cookies that day lol.

a reply to: TechniXcality
When, does life become valuable?

When you imagine that it does.

And be honest, you aren't pro 'life', you are pro 'birth'.
Correct me if I am mistaken, but are you not in favor of capital punishment?
Of joining the military and killing a commie for mommie?
Maybe you are actually 'pro-life'?

Back on point, ALL 'value' exists in the (vain, judgmental) thoughts/imagination, ego, of the beholder.
Whatever you imagine a 'life' to be', and whatever you imagine the 'value', that is what it is, for you!
It's all in you, your Perspective.
There is nothing in a diamond that is defined as 'value'; just carbon!

a reply to: namelesss

Well I am a veteran so I did join the army, and I did go to war so I guess I'm pro birth sure, I believe there are reasons to go to war and though I wish war was not a part of our reality it is and because it is we need to be well defended and always frosty.

Your other point about subjectivity is fine, it's all subjective fair enough. I just wanted people to argue my logic and to critique it, I'm not saying to legislate abortion I do not believe that my views supersedes others views I'm just merely explaining my reasoning and asking that it be challenged, anyway thank you for your post. Welcome to ATS

a reply to: TechniXcality

Are you drunk again?

Youre not following the thread which you started

VP is the poster before me, that's who I was responding to- not you.

originally posted by: TechniXcality
a reply to: Layaly

You know I actually got applauded for that thread unfortunately, it went way over everyone's head and I was to drunk to continue lmao, tell me what you think. Someone might of dosed my fortune cookies that day lol.

It wasn't over anyones head, your OP was a drunken ramble leaving people wondering what the hell you were on about.

a reply to: lifecitizen

Ouch, I disagree obviously, if that's the way you see it I apologize for not being coherent enough. Not sure why you are disrespecting me