John, you say. Which one?

In the New Testament we encounter several people called John. Apart from John the Baptist, there is John bar Zebedee, the disciple of Jesus. But it doesn't stop there. For in addition there is John the Evangelist, there is John the Elder, and John of Patmos AKA John the Divine, and then there are a couple of Greek Johns among the «Church Fathers». Despite all the research that shows how most if not all of these are different or separate individuals, most Christians treat most of these people as one man, st. John, and they say he wrote the Gospel of John, the three letters of John and Revelation. And they actually find support among the so called «Church Fathers» ftw, who seem to have considered st. John to be the same person as wrote the Gospel of John, the three John epistles and Revelation, and was identical with the very «Beloved Disciple» of Christ.

St. John, they say, was the only one of the disciples who managed to escape martyrdom. Supposedly the Romans had him boiled in oil at the Colosseum and when they pulled him up he appeared to be unharmed. Tertullian (a Latin «Church Father») relates to this supposed miracle as well as his subsequent banishment. This is typically traditionally seen as st. John being banished off to Patmos, where he then supposedly wrote Revelation. But that is of course impossible.

Tertullian's story of John in the Colosseum is supposed to have happened during the reign of emperor Domitian, who ruled the Curia Julia between 81 and 96 AD. That's way too late. By the time of the Asia Minor earthquake in 60 AD st. Paul had supposedly established a total of 9 congregations in Asia Minor, but the earthquake destroyed three of those cities, and only Laodicea was rebuilt. That gives John a period of 5-7 years when he could have written Revelation— between 60 AD at time of the earthquake and 66 AD when the Jewish-Roman War broke out— when there was a total of 7 churches in Asia Minor, those exact ones as given in Revelation, since Colossus and Hierapolis were destroyed and never rebuilt. Tertullian's mentioning John being banished to Patmos must have occurred sometimes after 81 AD if we are to believe Tertullian, thus we cannot be talking of the same man. By then there were plenty more than seven or nine congregations in Asia Minor.

When analysing writing style and the language used in the Biblical manuscripts dedicated to st. John, it becomes quite clear that hardly any of the biblical John texts could have been written by the same person. Take Revelation for instance. Compared to the Gospel of John it's a mess. And the three epistles of John are supposed to have been written sometimes between 85 and 100 AD, and given that st. John, disciple of Jesus was traditionally born within the first few years after anno domine, so to say he must have had quite a long and exciting life would be an understatement.

I am not saying there was no st. John, there most likely was, John the son of Zebedee and Salome, Jesus' disciple, the fisherman. But that man hardly wrote anything at all. And the person(s) who wrote the Gospel were not the same who wrote the epistles and none of them wrote the Apocalypse. Needless to say it is a mess bigger than in the time of Ahab and Jehu.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Interesting post with some very good points .What I would like to offer comes from Earnest L Martin and his book Restoring the Original Bible www.askelm.com...

He shows how Ezra was chosen to compile the old testament while John was chosen for the new .Both guided by the God . He even shows how John's genealogy qualifies him as the one God did choose to remain consistent with The Word of God .

The link has both audio and textual files and was a blessing for me . Just thought I would share

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Who was John The Revelator?


V

a reply to: Variable

He wrote the book of the seven seas?

a reply to: Utnapisjtim
Christians don't confuse John the Baptist with any of the others.
Apart from that, the fact that a popular name is shared by several different people is no big deal.
It happens today. That's why we have surnames.

a reply to: the2ofusr1

I don't listen to preachers, sorry, so I'll have to disappoint you there, my involvement with these texts and traditions doesn't include believing in anything really. It's about establishing what is right or wrong, good or bad. It's the Tree of Knowledge for heaven's sake, how we establish truth and how we treat truth, well that's what we're supposed to figure it out, right? Well, sifting out bad knowledge compared to that which is right and good is actually quite a job. Restoring a sort of framework in time and history when these things happened and finding out who's who whose who is he to whom the texts were transmitted, inspired by God— is essential. Red threads and printouts and notes all over the apartment kind of madness, but can be fun as hell nevertheless.

I don't really buy into the concept of looking for some sort of sacred dynamics or divine order in history or, and I see nothing supernatural in the inspiration the authors wrote under, I don't believe in astrology either, although I do know a fair share about it and do appreciate it since it's relevant to these old texts, and can provide hints that help us date and place certain happenings or events (Daniel for instance, full of astrological references. Apocalypse, lots). My concept of God does not involve laws for how to take dumps (i.e. the law of Moses) or make war and control society, but in the context of life in general, those ancient texts are important for who we are and have become. We are living in what those guys would refer to as Heaven. God? Anyone seen him?

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: Utnapisjtim
Christians don't confuse John the Baptist with any of the others.

That's why I said «...Apart from John the Baptist....» and why I said «...Christians treat most of these people as one man, st. John...»

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

I think the message is much more important than the man. If the message aligns with the teachings of both OT and NT than it does not matter or does it?

We have prophets out here today. Can you name one?

a reply to: DeathSlayer

I know only about one real prophet around, there may be many more, but being a prophet is included in the work description of the Roman Pontiff AKA the Pope as far as I know.

This here list seems to include all or most of the Johns referred to as saint John, there have been quite a few:

en.wikipedia.org...

John the Evangelist (born 1st century), presumed author of the Fourth Gospel, traditionally identified with John the Apostle
John of Patmos, author of the Book of Revelation, traditionally identified with John the Apostle and Evangelist
John the Baptist, preacher, ascetic (c. 5 BC – c. 30 AD), and reported baptizer of Jesus Christ
John the Wonderworking Unmercenary (d. c. 304), Egyptian or Mesopotamian healer
John Chrysostom (c. 340 – 407), Antiochene Archbishop of Constantinople
John Cassian (360 – 435), probably Scythia-Minor priest and abbot
John and Paul (d. 362), Roman martyrs
John of Egypt (d. 394), Egyptian hermit
John the Silent (452-558), Bishop of Taxara
Pope John I (died 526), Italian pope
John of Ephesus (507-586), Syrian ecclesiastical historian
John Climacus (525–606), Syrian or Byzantine monk and abbot
John Scholasticus (died 577), 32nd Patriarch of Constantinople
Patriarch John IV of Constantinople (d. 595), also known as John the Faster, first Ecumenical Patriarch
John the Merciful (died c. 610), Cyprian Patriarch of Alexandria
John of Damascus (676–749), Syrian monk and priest, also known as John Damascene
John of Beverley (died 721), Angle bishop
John of Pavia (died 813), Bishop of Pavia
John of Rila (876–946), Bulgarian priest and hermit
John Gualbert (985-1073), Founder of the Vallumbrosan Order
John Theristus (1049-1129), Italian benedictine monk
John of Pulsano (1070-1139), or Giovanni di Matera, Italian abbot
John of the Grating (1098-1168), Bishop of Aleth
John of Matha (1160–1213), French priest; founder of the Trinitarian Order
John of Meda (died 1159), Italian priest
John Kukuzelis (1280-1360), Bulgarian composer, singer and reformer
John of Nepomuk (1340–1393), Bohemian vicar general of Jan of Jenštejn
Giovanni da Capistrano (1386–1456), Italian friar; summoner of European troops for the 1456 siege of Belgrade
John Cantius (1390-1473), Polish priest and theologian
John of Sahagún (1419-1479) Spanish priest
John Fisher (c. 1460 – 1535), English cardinal and martyr
Juan Diego (1474-1548), first Native-American saint
John Houghton (martyr) (c. 1480 – 1535), English abbot and martyr (one of the Forty Martyrs of England and Wales)
John de Ribera (1532-1611), or Juan de Ribera, Bishop of Valencia
John Stone (martyr) (died 1539 / died 1539), English friar and martyr (one of the Forty Martyrs of England and Wales)
John of God (1495–1550), Portuguese friar; founder of the Brothers Hospitallers of St. John of God
John of Avila (1500–1569), Spanish Jewish converso priest, missionary and mystic
John Payne (martyr) (1532–1582), English priest and martyr (one of the Forty Martyrs of England and Wales)
John Leonardi (1541–1609), Italian priest; founder of the Clerks Regular of the Mother of God of Lucca
John of the Cross (1542–1591), Spanish Jewish converso friar, priest and mystic; joint founder of the Discalced Carmelites
John Boste (c. 1540 – 1594), English priest and martyr (one of the Forty Martyrs of England and Wales)
John Rigby (martyr) (c. 1570 – 1600), English martyr (one of the Forty Martyrs of England and Wales)
John Roberts (martyr) (c. 1570 – 1610 / c. 1570 – 1610), Welsh priest, Prior of Saint Gregory's (one of the Forty Martyrs of England and Wales)
John Sarkander (1576–1620), Polish priest and martyr
John Ogilvie (saint) (1579–1615), Scottish priest and martyr
John Jones (martyr) (16th century – 1598), Welsh priest and martyr (one of the Forty Martyrs of England and Wales)
John Macias (1585-1645), Spanish missionary
John Southworth (martyr) (1592–1654), English priest and martyr (one of the Forty Martyrs of England and Wales)
Jean de Brébeuf (1593–1649), French missionary and martyr (one of the North American Martyrs)
John Francis Regis (1597-1640), French priest
John Kemble (martyr) (1599–1679), English priest and martyr (one of the Forty Martyrs of England and Wales)
John Berchmans (1599-1621) Flemish seminarian
John Eudes (1601-1680), or Jean Eudes, French priest and founder of the Congregation of Jesus and Mary
Jean de Lalande (1615-1646), French missionary and martyr (one of the North American Martyrs)
John Wall (priest) (1620–1679), English priest and martyr (one of the Forty Martyrs of England and Wales)
John Plessington (c. 1630 – 1679), English priest and martyr (one of the Forty Martyrs of England and Wales)
John de Brito (1647-1693), Portuguese missionary and martyr
John of Tobolsk (1651-1715), Metropolitan of Tobolsk
Jean-Baptiste de La Salle (1651–1719), French priest; founder of the Institute of the Brothers of the Christian Schools
John Joseph of the Cross (1654–1739), Ischian friar, priest and Vicar Provincial of the Alcantarine Reform in Italy
Saint John Lloyd (died 1679), Welsh priest and martyr (one of the Forty Martyrs of England and Wales)
John Dat (c. 1765 – 1798), Vietnamese priest and martyr
Jean Vianney (1786–1859), French priest
John Hoan Trinh Doan (c. 1789 / 1798 – 1861), Vietnamese priest and martyr
John Thanh Van Dinh (1796–1840), Vietnamese martyr
John Gabriel Perboyre (1802-1840), or Jean-Gabriel Perboyre, French missionary and martyr
John Baptist Con (1805–1840), Vietnamese martyr
John Charles Cornay (1809-1837), or Jean-Charles Cornay, French missionary and martyr
John Neumann (1811–1860), Bohemian missionary, Bishop of Philadelphia, founder of the first American Catholic diocesan school system
John Baptist Y (1800–1839), one of the Korean Martyrs
John Bosco (1815–1888), Italian priest and educator; founder of the Salesians of Don Bosco and the Salesian Cooperators
John of Kronstadt (1829–1908), Russian archpriest and synod member
John of Shanghai and San Francisco (1898-1966), also known as John the Wonderworker, Archbishop of Shanghai and San Francisco
Pope John XXIII (1881-1963), Italian pope from 1958 to 1963

There are quite a few Mary's in the NT as well. I find it highly suspect that three Mary's would be standing beside one another at the crucifixion. It has to be symbolic instead of literal IMO. Same goes for the John's, they're all connected symbolically in one way or another instead of being literal people.

The bible shouldn't be read as literal history, it should be read as esoteric symbolism, a higher truth being conveyed through characters and settings. The bible is like one big parable, explaining life and its mysteries in the form of stories loosely based in history.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
If one name is very popular, there is nothing very surprising about a coincidence of names.
I spent my college life being pursued by Davids. Wherever I went, there was a Dave or David who was interested in the same girl as me. The equivalent name among the girls was "Sue". Even my most immediate social circle (as generated by my room-mate) included four of them, who got distinguished by various nicknames ("Big Sue", "Little Sue", "Irish Sue").
It may well have been the same with "John" and "Mary".

P.S.
"Last night the Queen had fower Maries
The nicht she'll hae but three.
There was Mary Beton, and Mary Seton,
And Mary Carmichael, and me"

a reply to: DISRAELI

I'm not saying they weren't popular names, but with a work as influential as the bible that uses symbolism throughout, the names have meaning behind them. Jesus means "Jah is salvation", there is meaning to his name, just as there is meaning to the Mary's and John's in the NT.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

I guess they were all looking for the right Jesus. Barabbas (that is bar-Abbas, «son of the Father») who was let go instead of Jesus of Nazareth was called Jesus too. And Simon of Cyrene, how many Simons are there really? Are we seeing a bunch of people claiming to be someone they're not? Robbing Peter to pay Paul comes to mind too. How sure can we be the Church got 'em mixed right?

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Good thread...

As far as the gospel of John compared to the epistles is concerned... im unsure if they were the same writer...

The gospel is an account of Jesus' life and what he supposedly said, where as the letters of John were the teachings said person learned but put into his own words

Revelation on the other hand... There is no doubt that it is NOT written by the same person who wrote the gospels...

Only Christian scholars will tell you that is the same person... but IF one actually reads the books and compares the two, there is no way that they could be the same person... the writing style is completely different

Any literary expert would say the same thing... Unless they were Christian... in which case they would likely lie to keep their faith secure and not rock the boat... sadly enough

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
There are quite a few Mary's in the NT as well. I find it highly suspect that three Mary's would be standing beside one another at the crucifixion. It has to be symbolic instead of literal IMO. Same goes for the John's, they're all connected symbolically in one way or another instead of being literal people.

The bible shouldn't be read as literal history, it should be read as esoteric symbolism, a higher truth being conveyed through characters and settings. The bible is like one big parable, explaining life and its mysteries in the form of stories loosely based in history.

Yes you have it. The three Mary's represent the triple goddess or wisdom which was replaced by the book, in the time of Josiah in the deuteronomist purge.

Margaret Barker: Where shall we find Wisdom?

The Lady’s tree of fire appears in another story, where her demise is the preface to the story of Moses and the Exodus. The burning bush was her tree of fire. The story of Moses learning the new name for God at the burning bush is recognised by scholars as the point at which the compilers of the Pentateuch joined together the two traditions. Abraham, Melchizedek and the patriarchs were joined to Moses and the Exodus, and the God of the Patriarchs was renamed. At the burning bush a voice said that the name to be used in future was yhwh (Exod.3.15). Later, we read: ‘God said to Moses: I am the LORD. I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob as El Shaddai, but by my name the LORD I did not make myself known to them (Exod.6.3). Ezekiel had described the voice of the Living One as the voice of Shaddai. Now Shaddai has been translated in various ways, most often by Almighty, but the usual meaning of this Hebrew word is breasts, suggesting that El Shaddai had a female aspect. In the stories of the patriarchs, El Shaddai was associated with the gift of fertility: ‘May El Shaddai bless you and make you fruitful and multiply you (Gen.28.3); ‘I am El Shaddai; be fruitful and multiply... kings shall spring from you (Gen. 35.11); ‘El Shaddai... who will bless you with the blessings of the breast and of the womb... (Gen.49.25). If the story of the burning bush does represent the transition from the older religion to that of the Deuteronomists, then we should have an explanation for the later Christian custom of representing Mary by the burning bush. This fiery tree had been the ancient symbol of the Mother of the LORD; sometimes Mary is depicted literally within the burning bush, sometimes there is simply a fiery tree named ‘the Mother of God’, and sometimes the burning bush ikon depicts Mother and Son surrounded by the angels of the weathers, that is, the angels of Day One in the Holy of Holies.

The three mary's were present at the crucifixion. And that is where the mother was given to John. Or where John became the son of the great Mother. John is Oannes (Ioannes in Greek)

Oannes wiki

Oannes (Ὡάννης) was the name given by the Babylonian writer Berossus in the 3rd century BC to a mythical being who taught mankind wisdom. Berossus describes Oannes as having the body of a fish but underneath the figure of a man. He is described as dwelling in the Persian Gulf, and rising out of the waters in the daytime and furnishing mankind instruction in writing, the arts and the various sciences. Oannes and the Semitic god Dagon were considered identical

Dagon wiki

Dagon (Hebrew: דגון'‎, Tib. Dāḡôn) or Dagan (Ugaritic: Dgn, Dagnu, or Daganu; Akkadian: Dagana) was originally an East Semitic Mesopotamian (Akkadian, Assyrian, Babylonian) fertility god who evolved into a major Northwest Semitic god, reportedly of grain (as symbol of fertility) and fish and/or fishing (as symbol of multiplying). He was worshipped by the early Amorites and by the inhabitants of the cities of Ebla (modern Tell Mardikh, Syria) and Ugarit (modern Ras Shamra, Syria).

The god Dagon first appears in extant records about 2500 BC in the Mari texts and in personal Amorite names in which the Mesopotamian gods Ilu (Ēl), Dagan, and Adad are especially common.

At Ebla (Tell Mardikh), from at least 2300 BC, Dagan was the head of the city pantheon comprising some 200 deities and bore the titles BE-DINGIR-DINGIR, "Lord of the gods" and Bekalam, "Lord of the land". His consort was known only as Belatu, "Lady". Both were worshipped in a large temple complex called E-Mul, "House of the Star". One entire quarter of Ebla and one of its gates were named after Dagan. Dagan is called ti-lu ma-tim, "dew of the land" and Be-ka-na-na, possibly "Lord of Canaan". He was called lord of many cities: of Tuttul, Irim, Ma-Ne, Zarad, Uguash, Siwad, and Sipishu.

The Johns were all Essenes who were the remnant priests of the first temple. Read the whole Margaret Barker link. Read all her papers. It becomes quite clear that there is a difference between the 2nd temple and its offspring the christian religion (exoteric, heirarchical, patriarachal, anti-______, the followers of the war god yahweh), and those of the 1st temple, which is Father, Mother, Son(s). This is the culmination of the mysteries. As Paul writes the Mysteries of Christ. The 2nd temple, pharisaical, fundamentalist, evangelical christianity, roman catholic, version is false and is what Jesus and his apostles speak against. the view of the angry god that was going to wipe out the pagans is wrong because the orginal Israelites were pagans. The jews, i.e. the plants from the babylonian empire which is the root of the 2nd temple, meant to remove the wisdom traditions and keep the stale version of religion we have now.

The symbol of the fish used by early christians , the images of fishers of men, Jesus being the bread, these are all images that relate to the teaching of humanity to ascend. This takes place by entering the temple into the holy of holies. if you turn the Christian symbol of the fish on its side, stand it up you have the traditional symbol of the woman that is the entrance to all temples and churches even now. This is hidden from the masses but they are using old symbols (like the sheila nagee), the entering into the feminine. Being born again from above, you would have to enter into the womb again.

So the Johns are symbols of the teachers of men, the priests of the old religion. This is the religion of the mystics and the mysteries. Not the book. "you search the scriptures daily because in them you think you will find eternal life". It is all revealed in full in the life of Jesus. Who preached the loving Father (and mother in symbols), The El and Shaddai. As opposed to the angry vengeful god of the babylonian jews who edited the old stories and added their own slant. He revealed the mysteries that had been hidden in the aeons past.

Mary Magdalene may have written the gospel of John and is referred to as the "beloved disciple". Misogynist church leadership obviously did not like this.

a reply to: zardust

Three Goddesses, that's three Mothers, as in the three Morrigans of the Celts? And then we have the three Mothers (Shin, Alef and Mem) of the Etz haChayim in Kabbalah. And supposedly Adam had three spouses; Lilith was the first— whom Adam supposedly rejected for being too dominant, then God designed an unnamed one together with Adam, but Adam rejected her since he had seen her intestines. Finally Adam demanded that God should build Eve from Adam's own tissue. Jewish fairytales perhaps or even modern ones since the story is included in (DC) Neil Gaiman's Sandman epic (I think), where the Morrigans make a guest appearance as the Kindly Ones too.

Any additional thoughts?

originally posted by: nonjudgementalist
a reply to: Variable

He wrote the book of the seven seas?

originally posted by: cooperton
Mary Magdalene may have written the gospel of John and is referred to as the "beloved disciple". Misogynist church leadership obviously did not like this.

According to the text, Mary Magdalen meets the resurrected Jesus disguised as a gardener, and Jesus says to her: «Please don't touch me, I haven't met Dad yet!» — to me this looks like Jesus was in the process of becoming divorced from his former wife, perhaps this whole crucifixion affair is some kind of old school divorce ritual? Perhaps Jesus married Martha, then falls in love with her sister, Mary, he then suffers crucifixion to legally divorce Martha («'till death do you part»), until finally Jesus runs off to «Heaven» while Mary shows up a few years later on the shores of France with a wee girl. Hm. Looks awfully suspicious if you ask me. Follow your dreams Jesus! Thanks for the stairs!