Quantum hackers thwarted, Universe has been patched against "Local Realism" loopholes.

a reply to: dragonridr

This experiment argues against determinism Einstein argued everything in the universe is set.

Obviously I'm aware of that, the point I was making is that even this experiment can not totally eliminate the possibility of super-determinism. It rules out the possibility of hidden variables but it cannot rule out the theory that everything is completely deterministic.

a reply to: ChaoticOrder

We are then at the already well-known supposition that nothing is entirely black or white, our lives exist in variable shades of grey (put literally not scientifically as I don't have the skills).

What interests me with these experiments is that we have shifted our perspective on what actually influences our lives and choices from the ancient world's view to our current world's one. In the past people everywhere it seems firmly believed that the cosmos - as above so below - literally controlled our world and this control was explained by its astrologers and the huge numbers of charts we still have left from their time. They believed we were subject to the influences of planetary movement and that energy flowed down onto our world stage and later on, once natal charts were drawn energy flowed directly into us influencing how we reacted to our environment.

However in today's world we don't think quite so much in the 'collective' today, our individual egos have evolved and we are affronted should anything effect our right to personally choose via our will power.

a reply to: ChaoticOrder

Follow along:

1. Nothing and nowhere do not exist. If they did exist, they would be a something and a somewhere.

2. Because nothing and nowhere do not exist, what does exist must have always existed in some form or another.

3. And that means we are living in eternity / infinity.

4. Cause, or causation, needs to be initiated by a cause without a cause, so causation itself cannot have come from eternity / always.

For that reason, we can know superdeterminism, as it is defined, doesn't exist.

5. Causation needs to be redefined so as to include something that doesn't need cause.

6. The only thing that fits that description is free will.

7. Thus, causation is free will determined.

If superdeterminism could be redefined to exclude hard determinism, if you can make superdeterminism into free will determinism, then it might be a loophole, otherwise, no - and no it doesn't even really exist because causation needs initiation from something without a fixed cause.

If we are talking free will determinism, then I say it certainly exists, and it is exactly what is happening. You determine your will as forces, someone takes that force in, and redetermines it. Of course, all this determined will would belong to sentience though, so the one who initiated it all, whose will it was to begin with, well, that is going to be God.

And no, randomness and chaos cannot escape the above initiation clause. (The order for those must have cause or initiation as well, logically speaking.)

So, imo, the only option is free will, logic, and no superdeterminism or nothing and logic doesn't matter.

Please some one send me the cheat codes.
I want to Hack the system!

Determination is already proven to be wrong. Because every information is shredded inside black holes. There is no particle left. There is also no time left. This also means there is no "ballance" and duality left which is the core Principe to make determination work through the balance of cause and effect.

originally posted by: buddha
Please some one send me the cheat codes.
I want to Hack the system!

42

originally posted by: imitator
John Titor was correct...... haha

Everything will play out and start over again... YES

You might as well say that Nietzsche was right, then.
As depressing and crazed as he was, at least he existed (in the usual sense of the word).


FWIW, I don't believe in absolute predetermination.

originally posted by: imitator
I believe we do have choices and that it will be played out in the multiverse.... it only seems here we have no choice, thus our universe here is predetermined by a multiverse of infinite you's. Now that's weird....

this is quite possibly the most brilliant thing I have read in ats for quite sometime

Determinism and the experiment aside, this thread has made for one of the best conversations on ATS I've seen in a while, maybe ever. I applaud all contributors and would venture to say that the concepts explored here are of the utmost importance in terms of what man must face in his quest to keep evolving and actualizing. Sometimes I forget why I'm a member and threads like these remind me that the company I keep here is the best of the best. Cheers guys keep searching and never forget how special these moments are(even if they mean absolutely nothing).

originally posted by: dashen
a reply to: bobs_uruncle

But you can control your opinion of what you see

No you can't.

originally posted by: TrueBrit
a reply to: AshFan

For those in the thread talking about predetermination and a lack of free will, I would argue that:

A) Poppycock

And B) Nonsense and buffoonery.

Quantum physical models can suggest whatever they like about inanimate matter, energy, the stuff of which the universe is made, but they have nothing to say about the behaviour of sentient beings upon the skein of reality, whose operation, philosophy, and methodologies vary and have power all their own, beyond, over, and above that of mere matter and energy. We are not mere machines, we are greater than the sum of the physics governing our existence, ergo we have no pre-determined destiny, unlike the inanimate items around us, which are pattern bound and have no fluidity to their fate.

A rock in the path of a lava flow is doomed to become one with the lava once more. A human being in the path of a lava flow can choose to fight fate and escape the area.

Hmmm, do you really think you can fight the fate and win???

Clearly you cannot, ever win, here.

Since you believe your destiny is not pre-determined, tell us of what choices you have, the boundless limitless planes you can exercise.

The model you are using suggests a sandbox environment that you control NONE of the variables, somehow leads you to being in control of your fate ??

The environment ITSELF is controlled by others, they can influence you in so many ways and place wagers that are 99% + successful in predetermining your EVERY MOVE.

Or moreso, they have engineered the entire system to look limitless while it offers you just what you need to do as you are.

Whatever, None on this planet or ANYWHERE ELSE have the gall to challenge reality , at least so far.......wanna see if all you or I say is even remotely true ??

I cannot figure out how proving entanglement over local reality, in any way relates to freedom of choice. It basically just means in the application of communication, it appears no local reality type loopholes should exist. No patch was made, just the proof it may be as secure as they hope.

a reply to: ParasuvO

"The model you are using suggests a sandbox environment that you control NONE of the variables, somehow leads you to being in control of your fate ??

The environment ITSELF is controlled by others, they can influence you in so many ways and place wagers that are 99% + successful in predetermining your EVERY MOVE.

Or moreso, they have engineered the entire system to look limitless while it offers you just what you need to do as you are".


Its those who are aware of this science who have utilised it that have got themselves to the top. Debunk available knowledge that you use yourself to everyone else thus you disempower and gain/maintain control.

Sadly I fear you are quite right in what you say.

originally posted by: blindprometheus
I cannot figure out how proving entanglement over local reality, in any way relates to freedom of choice. It basically just means in the application of communication, it appears no local reality type loopholes should exist. No patch was made, just the proof it may be as secure as they hope.

It's not about freedom of choice, as in do I go to the shops or stay at home. It's the freedom of choice for two entangled particles. Measuring one and getting an output state determines the other - even though there is no way information has been passed between them.

Imagine the two entangled photons. They have a probability of being either red or green for example. If you measure the first photon and it's red, the other will also be red. If you measure the second and it's green then the other will also be green. The choice of the other photon is 'taken away' because of the entanglement.

Local reality hinged on the premise that the states of the photons were set at the time they were emitted. So rather than be entangled they were already red or green, so measuring them only confirmed what the other must be. However, they have closed the loophole as best they can by showing that the photons weren't either red or green until the point it was measured and there is no way information could have been exchanged between the photons due to the distance between them.

It isnt anything to do with the universe being predetermined, persons or particles having free will. It's actually that whatever decisions made, all possibilities exist until realised BUT entangled particles somehow share that state.

(I'm not saying the photons are red or green - it is a simplified expression of the state of spin etc).

originally posted by: ParasuvO

originally posted by: TrueBrit
a reply to: AshFan

For those in the thread talking about predetermination and a lack of free will, I would argue that:

A) Poppycock

And B) Nonsense and buffoonery.

Quantum physical models can suggest whatever they like about inanimate matter, energy, the stuff of which the universe is made, but they have nothing to say about the behaviour of sentient beings upon the skein of reality, whose operation, philosophy, and methodologies vary and have power all their own, beyond, over, and above that of mere matter and energy. We are not mere machines, we are greater than the sum of the physics governing our existence, ergo we have no pre-determined destiny, unlike the inanimate items around us, which are pattern bound and have no fluidity to their fate.

A rock in the path of a lava flow is doomed to become one with the lava once more. A human being in the path of a lava flow can choose to fight fate and escape the area.

Hmmm, do you really think you can fight the fate and win???

Clearly you cannot, ever win, here.

Since you believe your destiny is not pre-determined, tell us of what choices you have, the boundless limitless planes you can exercise.

The model you are using suggests a sandbox environment that you control NONE of the variables, somehow leads you to being in control of your fate ??

The environment ITSELF is controlled by others, they can influence you in so many ways and place wagers that are 99% + successful in predetermining your EVERY MOVE.

Or moreso, they have engineered the entire system to look limitless while it offers you just what you need to do as you are.

Whatever, None on this planet or ANYWHERE ELSE have the gall to challenge reality , at least so far.......wanna see if all you or I say is even remotely true ??

The solution to an unsolvable problem is a Deus ex Machina.

originally posted by: TrueBrit
a reply to: bobs_uruncle

I am not adept at all of the self control techniques out there, but there are people with greater degrees of control over their biological processes, like snipers, those adept at meditation, long distance runners, those who train for cold weather operations, those who train for special forces operations, like the SAS for example...

These folks, to varying degrees and with different areas of focus, have shown themselves to be able to train themselves to be able to control the amount of pain they feel, the amount of hunger they respond to, the immediacy and degree of thirst, and other things of that nature.

Human beings are the only species on this planet, which, both at the individual level, and indeed at the societal level, are capable of doing battle directly with the forces of entropy in the universe. We constantly attempt to fend off its effects, to greater and lesser degrees. We put inertial dampening gear in tall buildings near quake prone locations, we put fire retardant into buildings these days to limit fire damage, we put lightning conductors on high structures to prevent direct strikes, we wear sunblock, and some people even go to the gym to stay healthy (most often, because they did not go out and get a job which stresses their body enough that the gym membership is superfluous).

Everyone who has ever beaten a fear or phobia they have, anyone who has ever overcome odds that defy optimism, anyone who has trained themselves to survive the unsurvivable, are examples, extreme ones, of precisely the sort of fate creation that I am talking about. They make their own way.

But those people do not control their constituent parts down to a molecular level. If you can't control all your parts, there can be no free will as outside influences of both classical and quantum realities can change thinking processes making your thoughts and actions not your own.

Cheers - Dave

originally posted by: swarm303
Determination is already proven to be wrong. Because every information is shredded inside black holes. There is no particle left. There is also no time left. This also means there is no "ballance" and duality left which is the core Principe to make determination work through the balance of cause and effect.

The interior of a singularity is outside of the system of this alleged reality. Information and energy may go in and probably can't be retrieved in their initial forms, but the energy and information is converted to gravitational and possibly magnetic energy thereby retaining the balance. Our reality is IMHO a fully superdeterministic virtual reality, there is no free will. Cause and effect are predetermined by the rules incorporated in the original programming. You cannot change what will be, anymore than an actor within a prerecorded movie can change their script after the movie has been recorded. There must be editing options, but causal editing of reality should create bifurcations in time lines resulting in multiple parallel realities. Meaning the editor outside this system of reality, can change the script and make more movies (realities).

Cheers - Dave

Since this thread went to s.t on the 1st page I"ll just say.

"Quantum time spookey intellegence is formidable capitulate of mental synapse because its beginning to look like its time for any them there for yet. "

a reply to: TrueBrit

Well said mate.

I have no idea how quantum mechanics is interpreted to mean there is no free-will. On the contrary, it has shown to me that there is more than likely a form of a 'soul', that is merely occupying this physical existence for the limited time that the machines which we call our bodies can sustain themselves.

It is a game however, and it's definitely created in my opinion. Science has shown to me without fail that there is inherent intelligence, which I can recognize as a human, in the physical design and laws governing what we perceive as space, time and matter.

But of course, as you say, we are not just the machine. That would make absolutely no rational sense after the sum accumulation of my experiences and knowledge. We are as much the machine as you are the computer when you create a message on ATS. You need it's functions to interact with this place but it does not constitute the entirety of your existence.

And just like a broken computer will hinder your ability to use ATS, a broken body and mind will hinder your ability to interact with the universe. That's ok though, since these machines weren't designed to run forever. It seems to be the inherent will of the designer of this place, and my God do I thank them for it. Death is a true a gift as live itself.

What does this all mean? I really don't know. I've wrecked my brains on it for more than a decade and I feel no closer to any truth. However, what I feel I understand without fail is the perceived truth that this experience allows me to purposely manifest something I can identify as being good, and likewise something as being bad. That must be of importance. It's like an on going war. For what?

But then you consider that we are just advanced animals that evolved within an environment that seems to ultimately have never cared for us and that perception throws a huge wrench into people's faith and awe of the universe.

How can you stop and think about consciousness, or self awareness of one's own experience, and the manifestation of one's own chosen thought, when you are preoccupied with surviving, eating and having sex? You can't.

If you are simply living through the primal instincts then you do actually embrace your machinery, and become robotic, and as a consequence your actual awareness of your own 'soul' fades and you accept the world seemingly provided to you by 'local realism' - which of course is all just an elaborate and perceived illusion which is ultimately the product of extremely intelligent and ingenious coding in the universes most fundamental layer of existence.

When considering our primal existence, you have to remember that we are TRAVELLING SPACE. The bounds to our technological advancement within the universe seem overwhelmingly loose. This cannot be a coincidence. We do not just randomly have the ability to act as Gods within this place. I refuse to believe that it's all just accidental, when every shred of physical and meta-physical experience and knowledge has suggested to me otherwise.

We have the ability to create a a world on Earth where our primal instincts are no longer the owners of us and we can experience a shared bond that manifests through the faculties of the self awareness of humans rather than the mechanical and robotic facets of our machines.

There is a balance to be had but of course. The physical senses are a wonderful thing such as are things like smiles, hugs and embraces, kisses and ultimately making love. But these are sacred gifts, such as is the ability to feel unconditional love and even commit acts of complete altruism.

We have to focus on these positives of our machinery, and in turn we will obtain a healthy balance of the mind, body and soul. It's an extremely delicate system and its only once you gain an awareness of one's third aspect (the 'soul') that one can even begin to alter this balance with actual accuracy rather than simply floating in a stream of existence to which you simply respond to.

It's extremely hard to put it all into words, so sometimes I use this simple example to sum up my entire fascination with this universe and our existence within it:

I can move my hands and fingers at will, and laugh at the fact I'm doing so. If I am a deterministic robot, in an universe devoid of will and spirit, and governed completely by mechanical cause and effect, then that would suggest that my brain (i.e mind) is pre-determining my movements, and then 'faking' to me the experience of choice, and further more forcing me to laugh to sustain some form of evolutionary instinctual coding, and all the while my entire perception of this event as a third party observer is really just a clever trick to make me believe I have any choice at all. Utter nonsense.

That is the result of creating a false juxtaposition between the physical/mechanical processes resulting in the perceived sense of which consciousness is bound to interact through in this state, and the origin or will of that experience in the first place.

I KNOW this not to be true. It is ME, the intangible existence that neither of you can truly see but only perceive through my interaction with the universe, that 'instructs' the brain (of which I'm inherently entangled to in this form) to send the signal to my body and thus move my hands. It is MY joy that manifests as an outward emotion through laughter, and not that of some inanimate blob of processing power via neuron cabling and circuitry.

We have become lost in regards to this view because sciences like evolution, neurology and psychology have confused us into believing we are entirely the physical, for these sciences have undoubtedly proved that the machine is 'real' for all intents and purposes of our experience, but they have have neither proved nor can prove that the machine is the entirety of one's self, and that's a question that can only be answered through avenues such as a those aforementioned.

This place is absolutely bewildering, beautiful and cruel at the same time. When I stare into another's eyes however, I see an intangible spirit manifest and controlling a body, as confused as I am, in this bizarre gift of experience. I do not see an inanimate brain controlling a robot that is ultimately control-less over what they say, think and do.

If that's how we are 'scientifically' meant to view ourselves, then my God we are further down the wrong path than I ever imagined.

Spooky action is proof of our reality being a simulation. From a computer-ish code stand point, it can be explained.