Early silence and doubts about Jesus

What is a logical reason to believe in God?

For me? None really, I guess. But I can also understand how two people can look at the same evidence and come to different conclusions.

Did Jesus not say he is the way and he is the truth? How could he be the way and the truth, if his way and the truth was from the Old Tesament?

Yes,he is the way and the truth and the light, and no one comes to the father except through him. The same father that commanded the israelites to commit genocide.

[edit on 1-1-2005 by Alec Eiffel]

So, if there is no logical reason to believe in God for you, then a belief in God by anyone, is illogical to you then?

You say two people can look at the same evidence and come to different conclusions? Which conclusion is logical considering the evidence?

Yes,he is the way and the truth and the light, and no one comes to the father except through him. The same father that commanded the israelites to commit genocide.

Did Jesus say his father is the one that commanded the Israelites to commit genocide?

[edit on 1-1-2005 by Indigo_Child]

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
So, if there is no logical reason to believe in God for you, then a belief in God by anyone, is illogical to you then?

Yes. But I can still understand how someone would come to their logical conclusions, although it is illogical to me. Its hard for me to explain, I think it has something to do with me used to be Christian, having the same arguements with atheists and such, and now being on the flipside of things. I dono.

You say two people can look at the same evidence and come to different conclusions? Which conclusion is logical considering the evidence?

I would say most of the time the conclusion that does not involve undefined words or unnessecary equations.

Did Jesus say his father is the one that commanded the Israelites to commit genocide?

No, it may have been Gods stepbrother, I hear he gets drunk sometimes and can get a little rowdy.

Yes. But I can still understand how someone would come to their logical conclusions, although it is illogical to me. Its hard for me to explain, I think it has something to do with me used to be Christian, having the same arguements with atheists and such, and now being on the flipside of things. I dono.

So, all said and done, you are saying our beliefs are illogical? So you are indeed practicing dogma. Did you leave the Christian Church, only to join the Scientific Church?

I would say most of the time the conclusion that does not involve undefined words or unnessecary equations.

I am not sure what you are saying. People do not believe in god because of equations. What is the equation of evolution by the way?

No, it may have been Gods stepbrother, I hear he gets drunk sometimes and can get a little rowdy.

So, if Jesus's father is not the god whom you say ordered the genocide of a people, then it means Jesus does not represent the Old Testament. What further objections do you have against Jesus?

[edit on 1-1-2005 by Indigo_Child]

So, all said and done, you are saying our beliefs are illogical? So you are indeed practicing dogma. Did you leave the Christian Church, only to join the Scientific Church?

Too general. What are your beliefs?

I am not sure what you are saying. People do not believe in god because of equations. What is the equation of evolution by the way?

God is an unessecary equation to an already complex universe. The mechanism for evolution is natural selection.

So, if Jesus's father is not the god whom you say ordered the genocide of a people, then it means Jesus does not represent the Old Testament. What further objections do you have against Jesus?

Jesus' father, one in the same, ordered genocide in the OT. Jesus represents the God of the OT. But go ahead, reword your question again.

[edit on 1-1-2005 by Alec Eiffel]

It would certainly be out of bounds for most christians. Their faith rests on Christs resurection, if it never happenend, their faith is worthless and there is no need for salvation from sins.

[edit on 30-12-2004 by Alec Eiffel]


While granted the Christain belief revolves greatly around the Rising of Christ for salvation it is not a key way to prove or disprove beliefs. God
had made before Christ a pressence of commandments/laws and a set of guidelines that had shown the glorification of God thru faith and prayer.

Salvation was a gift placed forth with some unclarity, for we are told those blinded in sin shall not see the path to righteouness that lies before us, having said that Jesus was placed apon this earth to offer a living word, and proof of God's existance and his love for us, and in turn lifting the blinding covers from our eyes. True salvation is the commitment to God's law and himself , Jesus was a lamb offered to slaughter for the understanding of man in a tangable path to salvation.

Once you realized that God is trying to help you realize the path despite the blinders Jesus while intricle to salvation does not way as the only structure of salvation, for I have heard man say myself I would not have believed in it had I not seen it myself, and so was it in the days before Jesus, so in keeping with that God knowing man couldnt easily and blindly follow someone or something without some tangible show of love for them
offered a tangible sacrifice that man could understand a physical display of the love, thru the presence, lifetime ministry, crusifiction, and resurrection of his only begotten son created in this world by a miracle of birth from a virgin human female.

Well Im rambeling but I hope this means something none the less.

God Bless and Happy 2005, and to those with people in the sunami zones my prayers are with you and your special others.

Too general. What are your beliefs?

What is too general? Dogma is Dogma. I believe in God, you say there is no logic behind believing in god, therefore my belief is illogical. As I said, it seems like you left the Christian Church, only to join the scientific one. What progress have you made? You have failed to rid of the religious mindset.

God is an unessecary equation to an already complex universe. The mechanism for evolution is natural selection.

Is that a fact or your belief? It sounds like more dogma to me.

Jesus' father, one in the same, ordered genocide in the OT. Jesus represents the God of the OT. But go ahead, reword your question again.

We could go on forever, so I will not be rewording my questions and I will save you rewording your answers and trying to tell me dogma isn't dogma. Rather, I require you to for once to actually substantiate your claims.

Can you prove that Jesus represents a god that ordains the genocides of people?

[edit on 1-1-2005 by Indigo_Child]

Oh, how we get tangled up in semantics and language.

Logic, has to do with known quantities, features, physical effects.

Unless you have physically SENSED GOD , you cannot describe Him logically.

You can describe him in Cosmic Terms--what you feel His ROLE IS.

You can describe him Subjectively--how He makes you FEEL.

You can describe him Physically--as related in the literature. Moses saw a burning bush. Jesus heard His Voice. Paul says, "He dwells in unapproachable Light." That's one interpretation of God's physicality.

But unless you're right there WITH GOD, there's no way to describe Him objectively. Is He larger or smaller than a breadbox? What is His temperature? Impossible.

If you want to master God's history--since it was penned by humans--of course it is not logical because each human's experience apparently was quite unique. That's no help.

Are you going to affect God or define God or determine God's existence by your beliefs, one way or the other?

Doubtful. He exists without needs. He may have preferences, I dunno.

He probably has a History, known only to Himself, since He's older than absolutely everybody else--self-generating, self-healing, self-heating.

Does He know everything? Probably, only what He/His Mind focuses on.

I don't know anybody who knows what they do not focus their mind on.

Do you?

Originally posted by defrag99

I don't agree at all with, throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

If the Landlord STATES there must be a payment (sacrifice) for errors (sins), that stands, no matter who He is.

If the Landlord STATES the terms of the Covenant include Law-Abiding behavior and a positive attitude, that stands, no matter who He is.

If you want to tear up your Lease because you don't want to believe what your Landlord tells you about the history of the property, you tear up your lease at your peril.

A person can't get out of the Christian Covenant HONORABLY by turning on God.

His Version of History is His version of history. He can tell us whatever He wants, to make the point that Law-Abiding behavior is part, parcel and paramount in this Consent Agreement we call "Salvation." (Matt 5; 1Joh 5:3, etc.)

He's the Author of Law, REMEMBER? Not ourselves.

I never understand why people embrace Grace, then turn around and "find reasons" to throw it away. If a person is in relationship to "God," the Higher Intelligence, it's the relationship that is precious--not the text.

But who am I to presume to know God's mind? Just the way I think about it, that's all.

while at first the legal jargen reminded me of an attorney, I seem to understand all this as this in simplest terms. You are saying that

1. God made all the things in existance.

2. he made the laws that govern these things.

3. God in his wisdom laid out HIS version of history (now this one gets me is there another version that is the truth?)

4. based on that history there where laws made that we in salvation agree to follow ( we'll in a small part is true yes history dictated the laws made and yes we confirm the covenant is accepted, the law is not accepted by the procedure all man must follow the laws saved or not, salvation is to forgive you for breaking the laws , hince the word salvation , to save you from the punishment of breaking the laws this is why innocent children do not fall under the damnation for they have no knowledge of the law or the salvation from the broken laws.


finally the salvation accepted and then tested.

While salvation is intrical to forgiveness for violations, the process does not buy you 100% release from dought and denial of God, God gave us free will to decide our path and yes even with salvation we can fall from God's presence, "God searches the heart and the mind and by that we are judged and every man shall be given in accordance to his deeds, for no man is justified by his actions, for justification by actions man may see himself better than other or God"

What is too general? Dogma is Dogma. I believe in God, you say there is no logic behind believing in god, therefore my belief is illogical. As I said, it seems like you left the Christian Church, only to join the scientific one. What progress have you made? You have failed to rid of the religious mindset.

Im saying, "I believe in God" is too general. What is it about God that you believe in? What is God to you? How do you define God?

Is that a fact or your belief? It sounds like more dogma to me.

It is a fact. Science cant deal with things that cant even be properly defined, why is this so hard to understand? Where would we start to event try to add a God in somewhere? What would we say? It would all be an arguement from ignorance, "I dont know, therefore, God." It gets us nowhere and we learn nothing. And the mechanism for evolution is natural selection.

We could go on forever, so I will not be rewording my questions and I will save you rewording your answers and trying to tell me dogma isn't dogma. Rather, I require you to for once to actually substantiate your claims.

Can you prove that Jesus represents a god that ordains the genocides of people?

No more than I could prove that the bible wasnt actually written by Satan decieving man to believe in God, sending believers to hell and un-believers to heaven. Im just going by what the 2000 year old book says.

[edit on 1-1-2005 by Indigo_Child]

Originally posted by defrag99

Logic, has to do with known quantities, features, physical effects.

Unless you have physically SENSED GOD , you cannot describe Him logically.

You can describe him in Cosmic Terms--what you feel His ROLE IS.

You can describe him Subjectively--how He makes you FEEL.

You can describe him Physically--as related in the literature. Moses saw a burning bush. Jesus heard His Voice. Paul says, "He dwells in unapproachable Light." That's one interpretation of God's physicality.

But unless you're right there WITH GOD, there's no way to describe Him objectively. Is He larger or smaller than a breadbox? What is His temperature? Impossible.

Wow, defrag. Where to start?
We can't set God with the limitations that we have as humans. We may be created in the likeness of God, but we have limitations and he doesn't. What is his size? He is all sizes and no size.
What does he look like? He looks like everything and nothing.
I think you get where I'm going with that.
I agree with you that we cannot decribe God, but for a different reason. If we try to hold Him to some description, we are imposing boundaries on Him that aren't there.

Originally posted by defrag99
If you want to master God's history--since it was penned by humans--of course it is not logical because each human's experience apparently was quite unique. That's no help.

Are you going to affect God or define God or determine God's existence by your beliefs, one way or the other?

Doubtful. He exists without needs. He may have preferences, I dunno.

Yes, Man wrote the Bible. I have to say, though, that if we are going to discount holy material because it was written by man, then we need to throw out every holy writing in existence today. All of it. Man wrote it all.

So, how do we get around it? Well, as a Christian, I believe that God inspired every word in the Bible and that it is exactly the way God intended it to be.

Originally posted by defrag99
He probably has a History, known only to Himself, since He's older than absolutely everybody else--self-generating, self-healing, self-heating.

Does He know everything? Probably, only what He/His Mind focuses on.

I don't know anybody who knows what they do not focus their mind on.

Do you?

Yes, he knows everything. Again, you are trying to limit him. He has no limits, he can do it all.

drbryankkruta--

I copy. We do seem to be on the same page at the moment ... ?

Jerrbert--

You may declare, if you wish, that God does not experience limitations. However, that does not mean God does not experience limits or boundaries. Since He CHOOSES to operate in time (rather than in Eternity) while His Creation is developing, His experience follows along, with the Creation.

However, once the Creation is finished and God YHVH is again OUTSIDE of time, then of course there are no limits LEFT.

Capitch?

Eternity is the absence of measurable time...?

No, you can always and anywhere construct a clock to tick off.

When time becomes unnecessary is when there are no material or physical processes engaged in cause-and-effect--

in between Big Bangs, for example, when all matter is in one black hole.

Then, of what use is time?

Im saying, "I believe in God" is too general. What is it about God that you believe in? What is God to you? How do you define God?

Who is God?

God is the truth. God is the order. God is the absolute. God is the lifeforce of creation. God is the source of creation. God is creation. God is perfection. God is transcedence. God is knowledge. God is infinite. God is love. God is harmony.

All that there is and that there will be be, is manifest in God. He is the non-dual mind. The supreme mind.

I am god's son. A micocosm of god. A part of god. One with god. There is no separation between me and God.

It is a fact. Science cant deal with things that cant even be properly defined, why is this so hard to understand? Where would we start to event try to add a God in somewhere? What would we say? It would all be an arguement from ignorance, "I dont know, therefore, God." It gets us nowhere and we learn nothing. And the mechanism for evolution is natural selection.

In other words it's scientific dogma? The scientific church does not ordain it so it cannot be logical?

I tell you what is a fact. The fact is that an apple tree will always give an apple not an orange. How does life come out of no life? How does something come out of nothing? That is logic.

No more than I could prove that the bible wasnt actually written by Satan decieving man to believe in God, sending believers to hell and un-believers to heaven. Im just going by what the 2000 year old book says.

So, you cannot substantiate that Jesus's god was the one from the Old testamant. Then why do you say with conviction that Jesus represents that God? What happend to logic?

[edit on 1-1-2005 by Indigo_Child]

Originally posted by defrag99

No, you can always and anywhere construct a clock to tick off.

When time becomes unnecessary is when there are no material or physical processes engaged in cause-and-effect--

in between Big Bangs, for example, when all matter is in one black hole.

Then, of what use is time?

This seems to be interpritation based, you nor anyone alive on earth can factually verify this time justification in reference to obnipitant beings and their existance these mathematical variables in the strictest relms cant even be verified by the best math and science scholars, I have a science back ground 8 months shy of a masters and I myself cant even prove this theory although I have tryed, better yet the black hole issue has no verifiable dateline, we have no way to verify the birth or if any the est date of the destruction of a black hole. It cant be measured in time a bang theory can yes be estimated by the expansion of particles from the epicenter but our scale is restricted to our comprehension, it may be that our values are not even totally inclusive as we dont agree on wether the bang starts before the erruption of particles over a span of space or does it start many many millenia before with the first mini explsions that lead up to one large enough to expand the particles.


Therefore time is relative to human perception, based omn limited facts and alot of theorizing and speculation

Look,

It�s very easy to understand God exists when you realize YOU ARE GOD. You do not exist outside of God, you exist as part of it. Jesus was different in bringing this teaching to man. Now Jesus (LIKE YOU) can be considered the �Son of God� just like we are Children of God and God at the same time. This is why the Trinity is accepted by many Christens.

If you read the bible carefully enough you begin to understand what Jesus was trying to tell folks:

God is EVERYWHERE, even inside of your own mind, because nothing exists outside of God. (If the word God disturbs you, substitute the word Universe and it might make more sense to ya). You ARE part of God. He spoke at length about the importance of understanding this and how it could empower you (he pointed out numerous times that if you fully and truly understand this with no reservations that you gain incredible power and have nothing to fear).

Harming others is harming God which is also harming yourself so the act will rebound upon you. It is impossible for it to be otherwise. Doing good is helping God which is helping yourself indirectly.

Remember that early Christens were scattered, confused, and persecuted. Only a few people witnessed the death of Christ and not many more interacted with him directly. And those folks were all very lower caste folks. It is VERY possible that Christianity�s principles could have spread out into social consciousness before the Gospels were written. Shepards where not known for thier literary prowness....

Now, I�m not a very religious man not baptized but let me tell ya. My wife BELIEVES. Totally, without even the comprehension of things outside of this faith. It is so powerful it is almost physical. Not in a fanatical sort of way, she just knows that God is ALWAYS with her and protecting her and will provide for her because she is with God at all times.

Why tell you this? Because I have seen her do some freaky things�she will simply (and naturally) ask God for something. Just like she was asking a best friend. No big deal, just a quick little prayer. �I�d like some X type of food today please good..thanks!�. This X is like some weird food, like Asian Pears or Rundang�not stuff you get here in USA without special trips to the China Town market.

Sure enough, before dinner time someone has brought over their �Extra� Asian pears or made a special batch of Rundang and wanted to share. Heck, I became 100% convinced when she asked for some clothes. That EVENING some infrequent customer of her gave her 6 brand new shirts that his company (a big clothing retailer) had excess and was going to dispose of. The idea suddenly struck him to give some to her. He never speaks more than 2-3 words with her in a month.

How many of you have folks just walk in and give you $200.00 in clothes? What are the odds of her asking God for it and that day it�s hand delivered, still in the packaging. Did I mention she asked specifically for some nice shirts? Take 3 guesses what this customer had �extra� of�

I�ve seen her do this something like 20 times in 2 years. Many more times than can be explained away by simple coincidence. It�s enough to change your opinion about the way the universe really works.

So don�t worry about the whole Jesus thing. It�s important to listen to the meat of the message, not the quibble over details. Because History, whatever our perception, is just part of the Universe, which means it IS God and thus exactly what God wants it to be.

Once you are comfortable with that none of these technical details introduced by man make much difference.

Originally posted by defrag99
Jerrbert--

You may declare, if you wish, that God does not experience limitations. However, that does not mean God does not experience limits or boundaries. Since He CHOOSES to operate in time (rather than in Eternity) while His Creation is developing, His experience follows along, with the Creation.

However, once the Creation is finished and God YHVH is again OUTSIDE of time, then of course there are no limits LEFT.

Capitch?

I do understand where you are coming from. I was there once. I know also that it is extremely difficult to picture God as not having to be limited by time. He is not limited in any way, by time or anything else.

God is...

Omniscient - all knowing

Omnipotent - all powerful

Omnipresent - all places at all times

I don't see why God would have to function 'in time' to view the development of His creation. Why would He create something that would require Him to limit Himself in any way? He is God. If we impose limits on Him, we make Him less than God.

Originally posted by MrNice
Look,

It�s very easy to understand God exists when you realize YOU ARE GOD. You do not exist outside of God, you exist as part of it. Jesus was different in bringing this teaching to man. Now Jesus (LIKE YOU) can be considered the �Son of God� just like we are Children of God and God at the same time. This is why the Trinity is accepted by many Christens.

This is the type of stuff I have heard from sects of budism , wayism and unitarian... what exactly does you belief structure fall under doesnt sound Christian, I notice some references in your speaking they seem very unorthidox in the way you basically say we are God that would assume we are worth to share the throne of God, not dwell beside it as the creations of God. Kinda confusing is also the reference that we are sons and un that context the ruler /God sets apon the throne and the son sets apon a throne at the side, so we cant be God if we are the sons

Who is God?

God is the truth. God is the order. God is the absolute. God is the lifeforce of creation. God is the source of creation. God is creation. God is perfection. God is transcedence. God is knowledge. God is love. God is harmony.

What is truth? Order? Compared to what? A dis-ordered universe? God is chemical reactions? Perfection? what is perfect? After every arguement I've heard from theists, the only thing God is, is senseless.

In other words it's scientific dogma? The scientific church does not ordain it so it cannot be logical?

All semantical arguements aside, yes. Science could accept God if it was presented in a logical manner. Unfortunately, it is all arguements from ignorance.

I tell you what is a fact. The fact is that an apple tree will always give an apple not an orange. How does life come out of no life? How does something come out of nothing? That is logic.

And that is an arguement from ignorance. Evolution does not state we came from nothing, it addresses how species evolve over time through nature. The mechanism is natural selection.

So, you cannot substantiate that Jesus's god was the one from the Old testamant. Then why do you say with conviction that Jesus represents that God? What happend to logic?

I can substantiate it through the Bible. I have, you know this, so then you ask me to absolutely prove it, with some type of knowledge outside of the Bible, which you know, is impossible. Im just going by what their book says. Note that I dont necessarily believe all of the events happenend in the Bible, im their story to show how Jesus represents not only "love" but the God of the OT as well, which commanded the israelites to commit genocide.