Rod from R-60 Air to Air Missile Warhead In MH17 Wreckage?

a reply to: Witness2008

They gave direct routing because there was so much traffic in the area. It had nothing to do with getting them over the warzone, as they were already going to be flying over Donetsk. They had flown over that area the previous 10 days, as had something like 150 flights in the weeks prior. There were dozens of flights passing over that area, including A380s, so there was absolutely no reason to reroute a specific plane over the area.

I've been saying since day one that at worst this was a mistake by poorly trained operators of a BUK launcher. At worst, Russia is responsible for providing the system and training them, and had nothing to do with the actual launch.

a reply to: Zaphod58

But they did. According to the British media the re-route was due to weather.

originally posted by: Witness2008
a reply to: Zaphod58

But they did. According to the British media the re-route was due to weather.

If ti was due to weather if it was bad enough to reroute a triple 7 then why would a su-25 be in th e air in the same area and have it even worse?

a reply to: Witness2008

That was the original story, but it was due to traffic. There was no weather in the area bad enough to cause them to alter course. And planes are given direct routing all the time. They practically beg for it once they're in the air because it's faster, and uses less fuel.

At 13:19:21, Rostov calls Dnepropetrovsk, and says "So, Dniepr, Rostov one. Can you give me a course for Malaysian to Rostov to the RND point, we have three of those there".
At 13:19:49, Dnepropetrovsk calls them, and says "Malaysian 17, due traffic proceed direct to point ROMEO NOVEMBER DELTA". At 13:20:00, Dnepropetrovsk calls them with, "Malaysian 17, after ROMEO NOVEMBER DELTA, expect direct to Tikna."

So they were being put on a direct course to several waypoints because of traffic. There were three other aircraft near the course that MH17 was going to be on to RND, so they altered them to a direct course. It had nothing to do with getting them over Donetsk.

originally posted by: Witness2008
a reply to: Zaphod58

But they did. According to the British media the re-route was due to weather.

Reference the weather. It was the crew of MH17 themselves that asked to divert the flight path by 20 nautical miles due to bad weather they could see on their route. MH17 then asked if flight level 340 was available. They were told that it was not available due to the other civilian aircraft being assigned heights in order to deconflict with MH17. That is why MH17 continued on its altitude of 33,000 feet.

Read the preliminary report that even the Russian agree with and signed off.

www.onderzoeksraad.nl...

a reply to: tommyjo

They requested a divert around that cell, but it was Dnepropetrovsk that put them on a direct course for RND because of traffic. There was a lot of confusion over that at first.

originally posted by: Witness2008
a reply to: Zaphod58

I certainly considered that the Flightaware radar data was off until I read the testimony of an AI crew that heard the controller give direct routing to MH 17. I also found several bloggers and researchers that had captured screen shots of other tracking sources, that then found that the data had changed just days later.

Those bloggers, etc taking screen shots were clutching at straws. Of course the then flight tracking data was way out due to the reality of the coverage in that region. See following for detailed post on why some people jumped to the wrong conclusions. See post #2 on that thread.

www.metabunk.org...-124411

www.metabunk.org...

a reply to: Zaphod58

You are quite correct, Zaphod. There is still a lot of people out there that don't realize that the Russians agreed with the data on the MH17 flight path as depicted in the MH17 preliminary report.

The draft preliminary report has been sent to the Accredited Representatives of the States that participate in the investigation, Malaysia, Ukraine, the Russian Federation, the United Kingdom, the Unites States of America and Australia for review. All Accredited Representatives have sent a reaction. The Dutch Safety Board assessed the provided suggestion and amended the report where appropriate.

www.onderzoeksraad.nl...

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

So does that mean RT has no credibility. I mean it's one thing for another media outlet to question your credibility. What does it mean when your own employees quit because they are being asked to lie to push Russian propaganda?

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

Service ceiling: 10,000 m (22,200 ft)

And yet MH 17 was at 33000 ft...still won't reach it.

And there`s no doubt operation "See-Breeze" was going on at that time. Just as there`s no doubt with Georgian involvement in the Ukraine with them right now training Ukrainian soldiers.

So you have no doubt...guess what it happened in Sept. of 2014.

The Ukrainian and US navies will take part in a joint exercise called “Sea Breeze 2014” on September 8-10 in the northwestern part of the Black Sea, Ukraine’s Ministry of Defense said on its website on Friday. Around 280 US servicemen will participate in the drills. The exercises will include representatives from five countries – including Georgia, Romania and Turkey – as well as the Standing NATO Maritime Group TWO Task Unit 02 (including Canadian, Spanish, and Romanian ships). The planned military exercises are said to be focused on how interdiction operations could enhance maritime security.

investmentwatchblog.com...

And MH 17 was when...

Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 (MH17/MAS17)[a] was a scheduled international passenger flight from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur that crashed on 17 July 2014 after being shot down, killing all 283 passengers and 15 crew on board.[2] The Boeing 777-200ER airliner lost contact about 50 km (31 mi) from the Ukraine–Russia border and crashed near Torez in Donetsk Oblast, Ukraine, 40 km (25 mi) from the border.[3]

en.wikipedia.org...

Guess it wasn't.

As for Georgia training Ukraine military...what's the problem with that, as they are allowed to do that if invited by Ukraine?

It's so amazing every time you make a comment such as that....so nobody is supposed to be able to help train Ukraine, but it is okay for Russia to send troops, and weapons, and let's not forget the training in Russia for them, so how does that work again?

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

Der Spiegel Apologizes to Readers over Coverage of Bellingcat MH17 Report

I see why you hid the link...

sputniknews.com...

...has no credibility at all any more if even a notorious anti-Putin propaganda outlet has to acknowledge it's just a bunch of crap.

Considering your source from above...do you really want to talk about one's credibility?

Gotta love the Kremlin propaganda pushing.

In fact here is the only article that Spiegel has about Bellingcat is this one...

'Bellingcat Report Doesn't Prove Anything': Expert Criticizes Allegations of Russian MH17 Manipulation

www.spiegel.de...

I would think that would be top news online about Bellingcat...just don't see it.

And why does everything go back to sputnik news as the source and nothing to Der Spiegel?

a reply to: tommyjo

MH 17 asked for 20 NM, they ended up getting 300.

Feels like a western propaganda echo chamber in here.

a reply to: Witness2008

They didn't ask for anything except to be routed around the storm. They don't say "We need to go 20 miles left", they just ask for a routing that takes them around the storm. And it was confirmed by Malaysian officials that they were going over Donetsk on their flight plan. It's already been shown that they flew over Donetsk many times in previous days.

There was no reason whatsoever to pick Malaysian, or to route them over Donetsk. There were something like 15 aircraft in the area at the time that Malaysian was shot down, all of them passing over, or very close to Donetsk.

a reply to: Witness2008

Who says that the su 25 would have been shot down?

Well I imagine the separatists would have a little problem with having a Ukrainian SU 25 flying around their territory, just as they did with the other one's...

Starting from losses within the group of combat planes, one Su-24 Fencer, six Su-25 Frogfoots and two MiG-29 Fulcrums have been lost, where one of the Fulcrums was reportedly shot down by a Russian MiG-29.

theaviationist.com...

If you pay any attention to what people under those skies see everyday you would know that there are on going reports of Ukrainian jets moving about under the protection of passenger airlines. Explains the domestic flight paths over war zones.

I would rather hear from the airlines themselves, as I have pointed out before how does one see a military plane flying at the height those planes flew from the ground?

You do know that for the most part unless one sees contrails they wouldn't be able to tell you there was a plane up there just by looking...I know I have tried.

Explains the domestic flight paths over war zones.

No it doesn't.

Airlines fly over most trouble spots, says Mikael Robertsson, co-founder of Flight radar24. They have to get from A to B in the most efficient manner possible. Syria is probably the only airspace that everyone avoids. Other trouble spots - North Korea and Somalia - airliners do fly over, he says, although it is hard to verify how common this is.

www.bbc.com...

The bold above is why they fly over war zones.

a reply to: tsurfer2000h


www.spiegel.de...

What do we learn from the coverage of the Bellingcat Report

Self-critically we must hold: This professional skepticism in dealing with the source material, the questioning of the source we should bring more expressed already in previous articles. We learn from it and take in front of us, so to heed in future cases. Because we want to inform you, dear readers, so sincere and transparent as possible about the world events. And of course we stay tuned on MH17 topic.

Not Kremlin propaganda at all.

And I think that it is clear that Bellingcat has no credibility. They even got dissed by the maker of the tool they used to analyse the pictures.

originally posted by: Witness2008
a reply to: tommyjo

MH 17 asked for 20 NM, they ended up getting 300.

Feels like a western propaganda echo chamber in here.

Only because you are a die-hard conspiracy theorist. You'll be telling me next that the storm was generated by a HAARP system controlled by the evil western NWO governments in order to make MH17 deviate!

a reply to: Witness2008

Given that there was some fairly cloudy skies, a plane traveling 33,000 feet high and a bunch of novice soldiers attempting to track a plane with equipment they were not familiar with, and having only a 70 second window to do that is well.....reaching to say the least. It had to have been a mistake.

Except you seem to miss an important thing about the BUK, it can be used with minimal training.

The missiles are straightforward to operate and work as stand-alone weapons — they can function outside of a sophisticated networked air defense system.

While that's useful in some respects it also makes it unnervingly easy to make a mistake, particularly for guerrilla or non-conventional fighters who are capable of firing the easy-to-use missiles, but don't have the training needed to distinguish between civilian and military aircraft by sight.

www.businessinsider.com...

a reply to: MasterSplinter

And I think that it is clear that Bellingcat has no credibility.

Only to those who are on the old Russian Bear train.

And you should know they weren't apologizing to anyone...they are telling you their way they would handle bellingcat in the future

. They even got dissed by the maker of the tool they used to analyse the pictures.

Actually he had this to say...

SPIEGEL ONLINE: What is your verdict on the satellite images?

Kriese: In the war the truth dies first. Each side accuses any smoke grenades. We can not know whether the images show what Moscow claims. This "analysis" but has brought nothing - except to increase the awareness of Bellingcat once.

www.spiegel.de...

Not much of a diss there.

a reply to: tsurfer2000h

Only to those who are on the old Russian Bear train.

Oh please, their analysis of the satelite pics was based on incorrect use of that tool. It was also full of assumptions and huge logical leaps. Why do you think der Spiegel was grovelling?

And you should know they weren't apologizing to anyone...they are telling you their way they would handle bellingcat in the future

They are admitting to mistakes and promise to do better. The whole thing is apologetic.

It doesn't even matter, what is made clear is that Bellingcat is not credible.

Not much of a diss there.

Well, maybe because you are not qouting the maker of the tool.


What about the accusations of Kremlin propaganda you just made? It took me 1 min to find the page.

a reply to: tsurfer2000h

Dr Neal Krawetz, maker of the tool Bellingcat used,

Yeah... chalk this up as a "how to not do image analysis".

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