Switching up How the Executive Offices are Filled

a verbose reply to: grandmakdw's idea, and a tangent stream of thought

grammie! Guess what!! I actually almost agree with you! (Although I would make it a Sanders/Trump ticket, not the other way around..I would insist on that ).....

so - I was thinking about starting a new thread: How about 1st place gets President, and 2nd place (runner up) gets Vice President?


Turns out - that was actually the law originally per the Constitution - and it makes sense to me - BUT...... what actually happens is that it causes several problems.

Another reason a mixed presidential ticket might prove problematic is the line of succession. If a Democratic president should die in office, a number of party loyalists may feel disenfranchised if a Republican is allowed to assume the office without election.

As moderate as a running mate of the opposite party may be, he or she would still be seen by many as a registered member of that party. Certain social programs or economic incentive packages endorsed by a former president may not survive under the leadership of the new one.

Perfectly stated.....

Originally, the president and vice president did not run together as part of a combined ticket.

Before 1804, when the 12th Amendment was ratified, whichever presidential candidate got the second highest number of votes from the electoral college became vice president. John Adams, a Federalist, was vice president to Thomas Jefferson, a Democratic-Republican.

Even after this, a few candidates have run with running mates from other parties; for his second term, Abraham Lincoln, a Republican, chose Democrat Andrew Johnson as his vice president.

The practice of a mixed ticket is very uncommon, however.

In modern politics, a mixed presidential ticket might survive voter scrutiny if both candidates were seen as moderates in their respective parties. There has been talk in previous elections of a moderate Republican being approached by a moderate to liberal Democratic presidential nominee, but to date nothing has proceeded past the talking stage.

While a mixed presidential ticket might be seen by the voting public as a sincere effort to bridge the gap between political parties, it might also be seen by party loyalists on both sides as a failure to produce a satisfactory same-party ticket or as little more than a noble but risky political experiment.it doesn't work.

Source

(I present this as my discovery, not to imply that you meant they would run as a SPLIT TICKET Rep/Dem - I KNOW you said specifically "as an Independent ticket". Okay? I'm just saying your idea inspired me to look up how it's been done in the past and if it would work.)

Although there is nothing "legally" preventing a GOP hopeful from choosing a Dem running mate, the reasons that it doesn't happen are historical.
So, the 1st place/runner up thing (which your post made me consider) – the “beauty queen” thing doesn't work in politics. Off-topic but related to the idea you presented as a preface to my point /@ grandmakdw

********************
Now - that being established as my premise – I want to address the suggestion of Trump and Sanders hypothetically running as the Independent ticket.

Them running together on a brand-new Independent ticket makes sense to me insofar as the whole idea of the two-party system is to make sure there is a balance – Unfortunately, Congress is the venue where that happens, rather than the Oval Office.

While a private meeting to discuss a possible Indie alliance is possible – isn’t it too late now??
Why did they not team up to begin with?
Well, for obvious ideological and personality-conflict-related issues:
Trump is (in my Bernie-loving opinion) a bloviating jack-as. Because I think I understand Bernie’s basic principles, it seems to me Bernie would say "screw that, no way."

And Sanders has described himself as an actual DEMOCRATIC SOCIALIST, which I’m certain makes Trump’s persona gag (based on his “TV character”. In a way, he’s like Stephen Colbert – and maybe that’s why I suspect him as being insincere. Maybe he IS just the Stephen Colbert of the election – easily conceivable as a media ploy….??? !!!!)

But, for people who can’t recognize that, who take it all seriously, or are not conspiracy theorists who think the whole thing is rigged (which I do, but still intend to vote) this is the issue:

While Trump sorta kinda says the same things, he is hugely offensive to millions of people, it would not behoove Bernie for them to run as a team - I think the immigration issue would be the brick wall between them.

If it WERE Sanders/Trump, that would mean the immigration issue would be the (possibly) only one that would be a misfit from the get-go.

That kind of animosity and diametrically opposed ideology would be pregnant with tension from the get-go. Could even be an "assassination" - or "suicide by association" thing.

It's too late now, though - they have both already thrown their chips in to the big ring of this circus. For them to dump their red and blue rings now would look suspicious.

Good outside the box thinking, though!

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Besides the 12th Amendment you would also need to change the way state electors pledge their votes, as is they vote for the slate.

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

Yeah - I am aware that the Electoral College is an ingredient of the whole thing. I have, in my tenure here, voiced my thoughts about the Electoral College. Since the Gore/W fiasco, I realize the "popular vote" doesn't really count..

And if no one votes at all - now Congress decides. Previously, it was Senate chose the prez and the House the vee prez....
but I don't think it's like that anymore. Still learning about it.
Thanks for reading and responding.

I'd rather see a Rand/Sanders ticket...

But that's optimistic to say the least.


Any ticket with Trump is detriment to Planet Earth!!!

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

I agree, and I think Bernie is too earnest to accept the possibility of teaming up with what might in the end, or even now, be a caricature. Trump does have some valid POINTS - but only Bernie seems to have valid IDEAS and plans of action.

In fact, the more I think about it, that's what I think is going on.

Trump is the national "Stephen Colbert" character" replacement. Since Stephen stepped down, and so did Jon, who do they have left to get those ratings? A character modeled on Colbert would be totally absurd....and in many subtle ways Donald is just like Colbert's character.
But the majority will not recognize that.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
Since the Gore/W fiasco, I realize the "popular vote" doesn't really count..

It counts within each state as the electors are popularly elected unlike previous to the 1824 election when they were appointed. A better method may be proportional allocation of electors in a state by popular vote.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

gasp! Which, in a way, makes it a PERFECT ticket! The people who vote them in as a Trump/Sanders team will have been beautifully manipulated by the media.......

As soon as it happens, Sanders' actual similarity to Jon Stewart (just as Stewart was genuine and Colbert was a caricature)....would be in charge behind the scenes...the Wizard of Oz....

Trump as the "figure-head" just hands the reins to Sanders and then takes his cut of the game and sits back in the Oval Office while Bernie does everything from the back-room.

Trump just signs the stuff Sanders presents.

It's a beautiful idea.

Okay!!!
Trump/Sanders it is!!!!!

A backfire that will go down in history.....

When it comes to the EC, it was designed to avoid a popular vote election to avoid a tyranny by the majority.

Look at all the social issues today where we are told time and again that it is wrong to let the majority decide because it oppresses the minority in hurtful ways, and yet when it comes to our elections, now we suddenly want a popular vote system?

If it's wrong for the majority to impress it's will, then it's wrong, and for the same reasons, even when the popular will may be one that you agree with for the time being.

The EC system was designed to both avoid the issue of strict popular vote will and to give the states representation as entities along with the people. This is still a constitutional republic comprised not just of individual citizens but also of co-equal state governments who also have a say in how they are governed at the national level. This is why the system is designed as it is.

Yes, and.....

do you have anything else to say? The EC is actually not the topic of the thread.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

It is important as there is the issue of running as independent.

As has been pointed out, you would need to change the COTUS and other things to get a stacked ticket like that to work out again.

a reply to: ketsuko

Please re-read the OP, and also grandmakdw's cited post, and then the rest of the thread. The 12th has already been addressed, and so has the EC.

I would prefer to stay on topic, not veer off onto the 12th and the Electoral College.
I am talking about the general population's perceptions of what is going on, and how this could all be a staged fiasco that people might not recognize as being a set-up.

In some ways it seems a preposterous idea (for good reasons), and in other ways it seems like a genius pair-up manufactured by the media and PTB.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
Since the Gore/W fiasco, I realize the "popular vote" doesn't really count..

It counts within each state as the electors are popularly elected unlike previous to the 1824 election when they were appointed. A better method may be proportional allocation of electors in a state by popular vote.

A better way would be to get rid of the electoral college & make the presidential election strictly a popular vote. Then it wouldn't matter whether you were in a "Democratic", "Republican", or "swing" State. Then our votes would count equally.

But if you're left leaning in a heavily right State (or vice versa), your vote for the presidency literally doesn't matter.

originally posted by: enlightenedservant
A better way would be to get rid of the electoral college & make the presidential election strictly a popular vote.

Due to the federal style of our government I feel the electoral college should remain, it also has some distinct advantages over an all or nothing popular vote. I do feel, as I mentioned above, a proportional allocation of delegates will most likely be a better method as you then end up with 51 popular votes to contend with and would force candidates to campaign in more than just battleground or swing states.

As my thought process (and afternoon) continues, these songs came into my head.

Now - I present them:

Lyrics
I could tell the meaning of a word like serene
I got some 'O' Grades when I was sixteen
I can tell the difference between margarine and butter
I can say "Saskatchewan" without starting to stutter

But I can't understand why we let someone else rule our land
We're Cap in Hand

I could get a broken jaw from being in a fight
I know its evening when day turns to night
I can understand why Stranraer lie so lowly
They could save a lot of points by signing Hibs Goalie

But I can't understand why we let someone else rule our land
We're Cap in Hand

We fight, when they ask us
We boast, then we cower
We beg
For a piece of
What's already ours

Once I thought I could make God a bribe
So I said I was in his lost tribe
Getting handouts can be so frustrating
"Get in line son, there's five million waiting"

I can't understand why you let someone else rule your land
You're Cap In Hand.

Lyrics source

And listening, I thought of this one:



Listened to it three or four times. Decided to post it, and found a vid, which description says:

Published on Jun 20, 2012
Roger Hodgson Co-founder of Supertramp performing his hit Give A Little Bit.

This song has been used around the world to help in fundraising for so many worthwhile causes. Thank you Roger for giving more than a little bit. Roger's concerts always leave me feeling so uplifted and he has a magical way that unites everyone in the audience where we all feel the true spirit of humanity is to give, love and care for each other. No other artist I've seen has the ability to make you feel like he is truly your friend and you are part of his global family and community.

Roger is now preparing for his 2015 World Tour so you can catch this song live. For concert dates and locations go to Rogers website tour page at www.rogerhodgson.com... or events at www.facebook.com...

Lyrics

Oh yeah, alright
Here we go again
Yeah

Give a little bit
Give a little bit of your love to me
Give a little bit
I'll give a little bit of my love to you
There's so much that we need to share
So send a smile and show you care

Alright

I'll give a little bit
I'll give a little bit of my life for you
So give a little bit
Oh give a little bit of your time to me
See the man with the lonely eyes
Oh take his hand, you'll be surprised

Oh take it
Oh, oh
Come along
Yeah (11x)

Love
Yeah

Give a little bit
Give a little bit of your love to me
I'll give a little bit
I'll give a little bit of my life for you
Now's the time that we need to share
So find yourself, we're on our way back home

Oh we're going home
Don't you need, don't you need to feel at home?
Ah yeah, we gotta sing

Oh yeah, gotta get a feelin?
Oh yeah come along too

Yeah, come along too, hey
Come'a, come'a, come'a, come along
Take'a, take'a, take'a look yeah
Oh yeah, come along too

Yeah, come along feel it
Say, take a look
Come along too
For a long ride
Come a long way
Oh, sing it tonight
Oh, oh

edit on 8/30/2015 by BuzzyWigs because: (no reason given)

So much for trying to build a bridge, eh?

geez....we can't even get a minimum wage increase out of congress, and you think they would do this....their heads would explode from the thought process of it alone.

It's mind boggling. I'm just trying to sort it all out.

Okay - back outside for me. More thinking to do.

Oop!!! This one, too:

Think of it as between American Citizens and/or The POTUS and Voters......


Official "No Doubt" Lyrics as per their website

RUNNING
Run, running all the time
Running to the future
With you right by my side

Me, I’m the one you chose
Out of all the people
You wanted me the most

And I’m so sorry that I’ve fallen
Help me up, let’s keep on running
Don’t let me fall out of love

Running, running, as fast as we can
Do you think we’ll make it?
We’re running, keep holding my hand
So we don’t get separated

Be, be the one I need
Be the one I trust most
Don’t stop inspiring me

Sometimes it’s hard to keep on running
We work so much to keep it going
Don’t make me want to give up

Running, running as fast as we can
I really hope we make it
We’re running, keep holding my hand
So we don’t get separated

Running as fast as we can
I really hope we make it
We’re running as fast as we can
I really hope we make it
We’re running, keep holding my hand
So we don’t get separated

The future…
Running, running, as fast as we can
Do you think we’ll make it?
We’re running, keep holding my hand
So we don’t get separated

Running as fast as we can
I really hope we make it
We’re running, running, keep holding my hand
So we don’t get separated

So, I'll just leave this here.
I'm certain a number of members will be able to make the connections between these popular music pieces and what our country is now enduring......

and others will not.

But - it's my contribution to the election process and political partisanship nevertheless.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Putin calls the White House:

*bbbbrrrrrrriiiiing.....brrrrrrriiiing* " Two Kings! Leave a message after this awesome acoustic hook!


Putin: Bohze moi! Dva idioty !?

Sanders and Trump: Yeah! We'll lead as Two Kings! LaaAAaah aaah aaaah!

Screw that, just get Tenacious D to do the job!

a reply to: TrueBrit

Or a couple of dart-throws at the phone book, you know, while the phone book is spinning around, maybe.....???
Hell, Brit - I'm just trying to figure out what to do....if I had any sway over any of this at all.

Which I don't.