A Question For The Climate Skeptics

a reply to: peck420

I made no such claim. I was only showing how drastically humans have modified the natural water cycles.

I said you seemed assume it was the case. That may be because you said "back in the ground.

Approx amount of fresh water used by humans per year = 3.26556E15 Litres of water.
Approx 70% of that is put back in the ground, so - 2.28589E15

In fact, I made sure to point out that approx 70% of our water usage gets put directly back into the ground, by the nature of the usage itself (agriculture).

There, you said it again. But most irrigation water evaporates. Higher temperatures mean more can evaporate, yes. But that does not raise sea levels.

Atmospheric water concentrations are rising too. It is becoming a major issue and is likely caused by the increased surface temperatures created by urban environments and some types of agriculture.

Yes. Because warmer air can hold more water vapor. So, water vapor content is only increasing in urban areas and certain agricultural areas?

I am of the mind of 80/20. When you see a problem, you eliminate the 80% that is easiest and fastest to eliminate, then you start whittling down the remainder.

Human water use is not causing sea level rise.

a reply to: mc_squared

There are two types of ice that you need to consider.

SEA ICE. Ice that sits on the ocean such as all the ice at the North Pole, will not effect sea levels if it all melts. In you bath tub analogy the level remains the same.

GLACIAL ICE. This is ice that sits on land. If it melts (and it is melting) it will cause a rise in seal levels. In your bath tub analogy this is ice that is external to the bathtub such that when it melts, it flows into the tub. The tub level rises.

The whole ice sheet over the North Pole could melt and nothing changes. But melt the Glaciers, well, that is a whole new game and the sea level goes up.

P

a reply to: pheonix358
You are not taking into consideration that "sea ice" which is keeping glacial ice in place.
An ice shelf is a maritime extension of a glacier and as such, plays a role in slowing a glacier's advance. The collapse of an ice shelf can accelerate the movement of a glacier into the ocean. The result being an increase in water displacement.
nsidc.org...

What happens when you add too much ice to your already full whiskey sour?

a reply to: pheonix358
Actually, sea ice is mostly freshwater and so does contribute to sea level rise when it melts - but it is a small difference.

Saltwater is denser than freshwater, therefore buoyancy comes into play.

The analogy is ice cubes in a cup of water - but people use freshwater in the cup rather than saltwater. If you were to do the experiment with freshwater ice cubes in a saltwater-filled cup, you would see a different result.

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: pheonix358
You are not taking into consideration that "sea ice" which is keeping glacial ice in place.
An ice shelf is a maritime extension of a glacier and as such, plays a role in slowing a glacier's advance. The collapse of an ice shelf can accelerate the movement of a glacier into the ocean. The result being an increase in water displacement.
nsidc.org...

What happens when you add too much ice to your already full whiskey sour?




Very true and yes, I am aware of the problem.. but, I was responding to the OPs bathtub analogy.

I suppose I could have taken it further but I could not work out how to bring the bath plug into the discussion.

It is a very complex system that is difficult to simplify down to the bathtub level, but that was where the OP started and thus I was staying on topic.

P

a reply to: pheonix358

It is a very complex system that is difficult to simplify down to the bathtub level, but that was where the OP started and thus I was staying on topic.

Except that you seem to have ignored the OP, which made no mention of melting sea ice affecting sea levels.

because basic physics dictates that heat leads to thermal expansion of the oceans, melting ice on land pouring into the sea,

a reply to: Greven

It is a very small difference when considering the amount of sea water on the planet.

These discussions often go off on tangents. The planet has been slowly warming for thousands and thousands of years. Go figure, it is all just a part of the planet's natural cycle.

It will continue to warm for a short time (geologically speaking) and then we will see the ice take over yet again.

Nothing Man does will stop that cycle.

P

a reply to: Phage

You have to nit pick!

I was replying to this

Ok this is already starting to drift into the usual climate rants, so let's simplify: If you fill your bathtub with cold water, and put a bunch of ice blocks around the rim, but then start heating up the room - will the water in your bathtub rise? I'm not asking about Al Gore's tub and what kind of tricks he'd use to make it look like you're gonna drown unless you pay a bathtub tax, I'm just looking for confirmation of basic physics. Thanks in advance.

Jeez, it is so damn hard to please you!

P

a reply to: pheonix358

The planet has been slowly warming for thousands and thousands of years

No. Not really.
southwind.com.au...
southwind.com.au...

a reply to: pheonix358

I was replying to this

Is on the rim of the tub the same thing as in the tub?

Jeez, it is so damn hard to please you!

Not if you get your facts straight.

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: pheonix358

The planet has been slowly warming for thousands and thousands of years

No. Not really.
southwind.com.au...
southwind.com.au...

Well done. I can do it too.



Now I suppose yours is going to be better than mine.

In my opinion, the only graphs that matter are those produced prior to 1995 when all of this BS started.

Science is swayed by the highest bidder, they sell their souls for a paycheck or a lovely grant.

P

a reply to: pheonix358

Well done. I can do it too.

Yes, you can. And your graph shows the same thing mine did. That the planet has not been warming for thousands and thousands of years. It shows that temperatures have been relatively stable for the past 10,000.

Science is swayed by the highest bidder, they sell their souls for a paycheck or a lovely grant.

Some perhaps, not all. And, if their science if flawed, it becomes readily apparent.

a reply to: Phage

Yes, you can. And your graph shows the same thing mine did. That the planet has not been warming for thousands and thousands of years. It shows that temperatures have been relatively stable for the past 10,000.

Lol. If we ignore those pesky spikes.

Look, historically, the temp goes up and then it goes down, through all of the ages.

We are just in a small part of the cycle.

We need to look at the overall picture and that picture is Very Clear.

P

a reply to: pheonix358

Lol. If we ignore those pesky spikes.

Do I really need to quote you? OK:

The planet has been slowly warming for thousands and thousands of years

Your own graph shows that is not the case.

Look, historically, the temp goes up and then it goes down, through all of the ages.

So what? Does that mean that human activity is not causing the current (very rapid) rise?

We need to look at the overall picture and that picture is Very Clear.

You think that climatologists don't look at historical data? Who do you think provides it?

a reply to: pheonix358

We are just in a small part of the cycle.

This may very well be true however this small cycle is going to be a bumpy ride. Better buckle up.

a reply to: MamaJ

With all of spikes on that graph, I think they are all a wee bit bumpy.

It does look a lot lie a roller coaster ride but as humans, with our very limited life spans, we only experience a tiny, tiny portion of it.

So, would you prefer to live in a mundane and rather sedate part or do you want an adrenalin rush! I could use a bit of excitement in my life.

P

a reply to: pheonix358

I wouldn't mind the excitement, I just don't want to die this young if I can help it. Im 42 but I feel younger lol

I want to see my kids grow up and feel love all around me here on this planet. I wouldn't mind living longer even.

a reply to: mc_squared

The Earth's climate has been changing since it was a molten ball. It will continue to change until the sun finally devours it. I'm not sure anyone disagrees with that.

a reply to: mc_squared

Is going to happen, the raise on the ocean levels, but this happen before, in the life span of those before us.

Is one thing people needs to get clear, Earth is gearing to another cycle and we humans are going to get caught up in it, the same way that happen before when it was not many humans inhabiting the earth is really no reason to speculate from where is coming, is going to happen regardless and is nothing we can do to stop it. The interesting thing is that after a brief period of warming is usually a longer period of cooling, that is what worries me the most.

The best thing we can do as individuals is to prepare ourselves, our ancestors survived this cycles before, we have too many populated areas near the coasts around the world.

a reply to: marg6043

The changes that humans are causing this planet has never happened before.

You are way too intelligent to stick with the denial/skeptic points of view here. You have it backwards, public opinion regarding climate change has been hijacked by Fossil Fuel companies and friends who pay sockpuppets to spread FUD(fear, uncertainty, and doubt) about the reality of human caused climate change. With the general public in the dark, there is little pressure on the legislatures to act on climate change.

The evidence is overwhelming that man is causing great changes and with a little hope, good policy, and a paradigm shift in the way we live, I hope we can make the changes needed to live a sustainable lifestyle.

The root of the environmental and climate problems comes from humans exploiting finite as if they are infinite and producing waste that ends up in landfills, oceans, atmosphere as if we can keep adding waste forever.

Something has to give eventually.