What is this about the masons?

Mr. Lupe. I highly recommend you visit this page.
www.minitru.org...

Check everything out especcially slides in "Anti-Tracts" section - "what jesus Would Do" and others.

The Craft is not involved in conspiricy theories or transporting babies or any other crap like that. If it is however going on, it is due to individual members. Not the society as a whole. The Grand Lodge in the UK was established in 1717 and the traditions date back as far as the Knights Templar and King Solomon. Being a mason is all about looking out for your fellow man and drinking lots of alcohol. (Not the blood of babies as one person put it.)

Your right about one thing finlandd, it IS individuals, not the cliche' groups. This is a personal choice of the individual... whether they intend to decieve, carry false hope, or believe! There is one way and it's God's.

1.Main Entry: 1craft
Pronunciation: 'kraft
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, strength, skill, from Old English cr�ft; akin to Old High German kraft strength
Date: before 12th century
1 : skill in planning, making, or executing : DEXTERITY
2 : an occupation or trade requiring manual dexterity or artistic skill

It is referred to as the Craft because of the craft of stonemasonry. That is the ability and skill of working with stone.

Mason's are a brotherhood with secret handshakes and quirky initiation ceremonies involving you rolling up one trouser leg and wearing a pinnie and a bowler hat.

Cheers Pacman.
I read your post with great interest and can safely say that I won't be reading anything you post ever again.

the concrete is creating a well of conventional wisdom. First here on the wacko geek sites, then soon in the average populace. Concrete facts, like the long history of the "giants(gods)", and the city on mars. Wish we could pool some more "secret" knowlage.
I know nothing of the FM. Allmost anything is possible with any man (Lizzard or not), though sssome long term patterns are obvious.
As for david Ikce, when the partial truth comes from a bull s#!ter is it then all b~()s#!te?

[Edited on 27-11-2002 by djjungleboy]

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL....This is by far, the most singularily hilarious strain I've come across yet! On one hand you have Hollow Earth dude, Alien dude, Bible dude, and Pac Man (who actually attempts to do research, KUDOS) and all agree that the truth is being suppressed by the 'divide and conquour' method, and at the same time, you are all divided and conquoured by your insistance of the validity of the false information you have been fed by those agents that wish to divide you. LOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!
You don't have to look to the stars to see what is going on around you!! The answer is as simple as recognizing that there are different personality types, some that crave power, some that don't. Those that crave power organize themselves so that they can attain it. Those that don't crave power have a tendency to act individually, and don't conspire to gain power. It is that simple. Now, with that premise, what organizations have represented power down throughout history? To answer that, take people that have had, or have power, whether it be power of societal influence, political influence, spiritual influence etc., and find out what associations they have in common. That is a good start! When you have undertaken this task, more questions will arise, but don't, for cripes sake, jump to a conclusion that has been fed to you by the David Icke's of the world. Instead of believing, do the work and start knowing!

Yo, Ma-Ha-Boney-Boy! Do you have the truth?
Both sides, whether they come out and state their sources and research for you, have done the work, I'll bet. On either side, the ones that say they believe have enough sense to know that they do not have all the information and are probably smart enough to know that they will never have all the information. Now, provide us with tangible, irrefutable proof, or don't tell any of us, on either side, to go do the work and know!

As for me, I'm firmly on the fence on this and chances are you can't sway me either way! My "work" indicates the Masonic mechanism is dark in nature, my skepticism says that all that I've read is by people who don't like Masons for whatever reason, so I sit right on the fence and drink my beer with my friends, Masonic members or not.
And the world goes 'round yet.

all you want, but by no means do I imagine it being comfortable. In my posts I provide as much evidence as I can without writing a novel, digressing into other 'arenas', and not boring (at least I hope not) the reader to death. As far as knowing, well...do you buy a car because someone says it is a good car, or do you go and look at it yourself? It must be nice to have absolutely no ambition or hunger for knowledge. I'm sure that your beer drinking skills are excellent though, and that really is something to be envious of, and if it is a prodigal as I imagine it to be, you may have to reinforce that fence your parked on.

So hot in here....

I am a newbie to these boards, however I will inject my own contention in attempt to provide you with something.

I myself have recently been approached by two people who have expressed their interest in my potential involvement in the FreeMason's. Providing me with the phrase "Ask one to be one" in hopes of my asking.

Since that very night, I have done nothing but research everything I could find. Websites, books etc.

There is one certainty I have found thus far in all of my studies...

Nothing is certain and noone knows a damn thing.

I plan to join the Masonic orders because they have been a driving force behind my investigative efforts into truth. A truth that I have always been open for, but not looking into.

Considering the amount of time passed, and the number of people in this world and the next who know more than myself and have other goals than myself by which their knowledge may be better off unkown to me or those like me, I do not assume all of my questions will ever be answered. However, the meaning of life is the search for truth, and as long I continue to search, I will be always be able to claim this life as my own.

Mogus,

I suggest you re-think your stratagy.

I, too, was prodded to ask for membership. I was searching for truth, as you are right now, and that's what makes people like you and me attractive to them - our thirst for the truth. Freemasons recruit those people they think will be most profitable to their agenda, whatever that may be. If you are intelligent, wealthy, powerful, or in a position in life where they need an agent, you may be sought after. On the other hand, if they suspect you are or will be a danger to them, the best way to silence you would be to have you join the order. The first thing you do upon joining the freemasons is to take an oath to never disclose any of the secret goings-ons of the order. If you do, you're dead.

So, ask yourself, "why doesn't anyone know anything concrete about the freemasons? The internet's huge, but all the information conflicts... how can I know for sure?"

I'll give you some advice. If you join, it is a lifelong pledge and you can never leave. You can never tell your friends or wife anything that goes on in the society. There is no-one on the outside that will be able to help you should the society be less than benevolent. If something happens within the society that is illegal, immoral, and you report these happenings to the police - you will disappear.

This is why no one knows for sure. You shut your mouth, obey in secrecy, and die if you tell anyone.

Sounds like a bloody ring of pedophiles to me.

Sav, I don't see how you can prove any of your allegations.

There are PLENTY of sites by former Masons. Nobody's kept from leaving.

And as to what goes on, there's been documentaries on television (History channel, I believe) and plenty of websites with the Masonic material and rituals revealed -- includign some lodge sites.

Lodges are openly discussing what's going on.

If you don't want to join, fine -- but it always was a social club. As to a great agenda, there's no such thing. You'd have found this out if you joined the Masons.

I don't know who fed you all that disinformation, but if you did more research on the topic (and checked with the Masonic sites and did a little comparing of the "facts" presented/prognosticated by the Hysteric Sites) you might come to different conclusions.

Or not. It's a free Internet.

Byrd,

You are correct; I can't prove any of my allegations. Not for lack of trying, mind you. Reliable information related to freemasonry is hard to come by, and the internet is full of unreliable information. I figure some, if not all, of the gaudy websites vaulting fantastic facts and lore about the freemasons must be dupes - although sometimes secrets do leak out. I imagine in this case, when a dangerous secret is revealed, the best stratagy is to flood the internet with misinformation. Dis-informants weave complex tales composed of half-truths and unlikely, sometimes downright fantastic, events to attract the attention of the conspiracy half-wits and repulse the shrewd-minded from further explorations into the matter - Mr. Icke's website, for instance. And those that do pursue this line of research, bereft of freemasonly guidance, are likely to go insane - for various reasons.

You are right that I can't prove a thing. But not being able to prove a thing exists doesn't mean it doesn't.

I understand the Masons have 'revealed' some of their 'innnermost' secrets to the masses, as have the CIA and the FBI through the Freedom of Information Act. However, just like the CIA and the FBI, the freemasons have released this information to stifle public anti-sentiment about the goings-ons within the group and other like it. Take a peek at the new guidelines being written up for Great Britain's police forces today - all because the people there know that members of the buddy/buddy freemasons get preferred treatment and/or covered by their 'brothers' whenever they mess up. So to salvage their image the freemasons create a spin that their organiztion is no different than your local bowling club.

Besides all this, my reasoning behind not joining runs thusly:

I do believe in a deity - a prerequisite of any freemason apprentice. However, I try to obey His most divine laws whenever possible and to listen to His advice.

It is no great secret that freemasons must take oaths - how many, I can't say, but one is sufficient for this example.

"Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. But let your communications be, Yea, Yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil." MATT 5:33-37

Freemasons are elitists who render preferential treatment to the members of their brotherhood before the needs of the non-brothers of their nation or world. But, according to Christ:

"For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?" MATT 5:46-47

It is obvious that freemasons extend much loyalty to one another, but are the more loyal to themselves than to God? Just a reminder that...

"No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other." MATT 6:23

"He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me." MATT 10:37

Anyone that disregards God's commandments in running to a 'brother's' aid, loves his brother more than God. Imagine what a sacrifice it must be to lie and kill, breaking God's most perfect laws, for one's 'brothers'.

Utilyzing magic and astrology, as well as various myths, symbols, numbers, and archetypes to communicate freemasonry's deepest esoteric and exoteric mysteries, the brothers are (perhaps unknowingly) caught in a web of sorcery which is expressly forbidden by the God of Christ and Abraham. God and His Truth, regardless of pop cultures' politically correct misconceptions, are not relative: they exist independant of us and are infinately greater than us. These mysteries are incredibly difficult to attain, but are not impossible to achive. Consider this advice (and warning):

"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Beware of false prophets, that come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?" MATT 7:13-16

The 'strait gate' is the one taken by those who do their utmost to follow God's Laws. The strait gate is a moral one, the pursuit of Godly ambitions over earthy ones; it leads to a narrow and difficult road with yawning chazms on either side. But it has its merits - chief among these are eternal life and the revieling of the True Mysteries to the faithful.

The 'wide gate' is the easy path taken by slackers who want to learn the mysteries - but also want to gain earthly power. Superficial evidence of mystical power is experienced and powerful (earthly) contacts are made. Earthly success is guaranteed.

In their works, however, you will know who they serve.

I have always wanted to serve the highest master. Christ was the only man who followed God's Law, and he taught the unrefined mysteries in their truest sense and revealed them in public, much to the dismay of the temple priests:

"And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from top to bottom..." MATT 27:51

The secrets are already revealed through Christ. Any materialistic back-scratcher that teaches any other mysteries is, well... time's almost up.

Byrd, I would like to continue this discussion. Please post your thoughts.

[Edited on 9-12-2002 by Savonarola]

I understand the Masons have 'revealed' some of their 'innnermost' secrets to the masses, as have the CIA and the FBI through the Freedom of Information Act. However, just like the CIA and the FBI, the freemasons have released this information to stifle public anti-sentiment about the goings-ons within the group and other like it.

And it's a good move. People have become suspicious about secretive groups.

Take a peek at the new guidelines being written up for Great Britain's police forces today - all because the people there know that members of the buddy/buddy freemasons get preferred treatment and/or covered by their 'brothers' whenever they mess up.

You might not be aware of it, but the US had the same problem with some NeoNazis and KKK members in the police force. The KKK is another secretive group with a very publicized agenda.

So to salvage their image the freemasons create a spin that their organiztion is no different than your local bowling club.

The Ku Klux Klan tried this (if you're unfamiliar with the Klan, they're a very old (1860's) and secretive group of White racists who terrorized Blacks and anyone who thought that Blacks and other races should be treated decently. They're the ones who burn crosses on people's lawns, if you've noticed those stories in the US papers.

I do believe in a deity - a prerequisite of any freemason apprentice. However, I try to obey His most divine laws whenever possible and to listen to His advice.

Consistant with the Masons, you'll find. They would not be comfortable with a Wiccan like myself in their midst. At one time you HAD to be Protestant.

It is no great secret that freemasons must take oaths - how many, I can't say, but one is sufficient for this example.

Ah, the oaths. I can see where this would be a dodgy issue for you -- with that belief, you couldn't take an oath of office for a public office, take marriage vows, do a pledge to Queen and country, or testify at a trial. Most of us take vows and oaths -- it's not a big deal; it's simply a statement of our intentions to follow through.

The Masonic oaths were written during the 1700's and at a time when the order was struggling for credibility. They include a lot of the "woo-woo" factor -- but the plain truth is that there haven't been any murders for revealing stuff in a VERY long time (several hundred years, according to my research. Some unverified stuff, some made up stuff, but no verified murders in a long time.)

Various clubs and orders in England of that time ALSO had some real "woo-woo" stuff in their oaths.

Freemasons are elitists who render preferential treatment to the members of their brotherhood before the needs of the non-brothers of their nation or world.

Just like the gentlemen's clubs of England or the old school boys' groups (Eton, for example) or any of today's unions, or the older unions (who also have secret meetings and so forth), or any group of nationals in a foreign nation... the list is lengthy.

It is obvious that freemasons extend much loyalty to one another, but are the more loyal to themselves than to God?

Perhaps you should observe some. The ones I've observed are and were very religious.

Utilyzing magic and astrology, as well as various myths, symbols, numbers, and archetypes to communicate freemasonry's deepest esoteric and exoteric mysteries, the brothers are (perhaps unknowingly) caught in a web of sorcery which is expressly forbidden by the God of Christ and Abraham.

Speaking first as a Wiccan, there is NO way you could do witchcraft/sorcery/whatever with anything the Masons practice. Including Christian sorcery. The tools and the focus are all wrong.

And as for the "astrology" in the Masons, speaking as a professional astrologer (yes, in the early 70's I was a professional astrologer), there is NO astrological stuff in any of the Masonic material I've ever come across. Some planetary symbolism and so forth, yes... but that's like saying that if you have a picture of the Spice Girls in an ad in a magazine in your office that you are a Spice Girl worshipper and that Spice Girls figure heavily in whatever it is you do at work.

Secondly, the "esoteric mysteries" were a common expression in that era. Learned men often used such symbols in other contexts just as today's teenagers often convey a lot of information with a few words from a popular song.

The use of archetypes is something I support. Movies shove archetypes at us all the time, and they're usually not very healthy ones (I don't know if you're aware of the US show, "The Osbornes," or "The Sopranos" but these are being presented to us as strong archetypes of attractive people. The truth is that they're all very destructive archetypes and very negative ones.) That was one thing I admired about the Catholics -- their use of saints as lifetime role models to counter some of the very negative archetypes and heroes around.

There aren't that many archetypes in the Masonic literature; the ones that are there mainly stress oath holding and keeping sacred that which Jehovah taught.



(...and I won't at this point go into any religious discussions. This is the wrong section for it.)

Byrd,

I know quite a bit about the KKK, and you're correct in linking them with the freemasons - many of the rituals, no doubt, have been passed down from Freemasonry to the Klan - it's a kind of 'freemasonry for the intellectually deficient' klub - bah!

"You might not be aware of it, but the US had the same problem with some NeoNazis and KKK members in the police force. The KKK is another secretive group with a very publicized agenda."

"The Ku Klux Klan tried this (if you're unfamiliar with the Klan, they're a very old (1860's) and secretive group of White racists who terrorized Blacks and anyone who thought that Blacks and other races should be treated decently. They're the ones who burn crosses on people's lawns, if you've noticed those stories in the US papers."

Are you saying that freemasons scratching each others backs is okay because the KKK did it? Or do you mean that the freemasons are okay because they aren't quite as bad as the KKK? I don't see how these statements helps your argument.

A freemason lodge would accept you into their ranks considering that muslims, buddhists, and taoists are already within their ranks. Japanamation cartoons - yes, I do watch cartoons from time to time - are replete with masonic symbols such as the all-seeing-eye in the pyramid. I doubt that these japanese artists are protestent, and probably don't believe in a personal God as I do. They are accepting applications from everyone. I'd imagine even satanists can get in - if freemasons aren't already a bunch of baby blood-drinkers.

As far as the oath is concerned, it is very difficult to function in society without swearing alliegance of some kind - but I get by just fine. "Being a minority of one doesn't make that one insane".

Taking an oath is a "big deal" because if, for whatever reason, you cannot fulfill your obligation, you have lied and broken a commandment. I am not saying anybody is perfect, but the point is not to invite the problem into your life in the first place. How many times have you been in trouble with the girlfriend because you 'promised' to pick her up at 8, something important happened like your x-girlfriend calls, and then you end up being late - say, you show up at 10? You made an oath and you broke it. She might forgive you, perhaps not... If I had knew this whole not-making-oaths rule when I was born, my life would have been a whole lot simpler. Christ was a genius.

As to no 'verifiable' murders... no kidding. I can't imagine how a group comprised of government officials, police officers, firemen, doctors, lawyers, etc, could possibly let one of their own get caught. I mean come on! Sure, no verifiable evidence because the first cop on the scene was a mason, or the evidence 'disappears' from the station, or the judge lets the accused off on a technicality... How many of Dubya's cronies involved in the Enron scandle have been charged? None of the real culprits behind the scandle. Boy's club at work.

The last freemason I was aquanted with, white anglo-saxon male, 32nd degree, said he had opened the bible once or twice only to be amazed at the poetic form of the verses. He was not religious, but he was fervent when he talked about freemasonry.

You said there is "no way you could do witchcraft/sorcery/whatever with anything the Masons practice". I don't suppose you've seen a pentagram or a star/shield of David on any masonic paraphernalia? Any similarities between the hand signals and body postures seen in masonry and that seen in the grand grimoire? Magic is a HUGE part of masonic ritual, though it may not be visible at the lower degrees. "The tools and focus" are not all wrong, for even Aleistar Crowley would tell you that the strongest, most potent magic is that which is improvised, in other words, new. Every new lodge that springs up has their own flavour of doing things...

When I speak of masonic archetypes I'm not speaking of puer aeternis or the older, unrelated male. I'm talking about mystery plays involving luciferian initiation rites; where one is taught about the bold stand Lucifer and his angels made against the tyrannical God Yahwey, and similar nonsense.

There is no room for a heroic Lucifer. He's been a lier and a murderer from the beginning. These are the reasons the Roman Catholic church have prohibited catholics from becoming masons (not that I am any fan of the RC church - I'll save those comments for another post).

Egads, am I tired. See ya tomorrow, Byrd.

-�avonarola

Originally posted by conspiracywannabe
This whole thing sounds a bit odd to me, most masons are just old retired people. and i've been in thier lodges. Its nothing specails and there are no aliens.

Wannabe, I wouldn't say it's nothing special, the lodge is more precise and formal then even the military. My first time watching an installment of officers blew me away, because of the fact that it WAS so organized and traditional. It's also something straight out of the 1700s, the way everything looks Maybe you just went by for something else? You definately should see an installment if you can though, it's a sight to behold.

Now as for you and your paranoia savonarola, I hope you know that Freemasonry raises more charity in a day than the Catholic Church does in a week. And the Catholic church has approximately 200 times as many members. In fact, I've said it myself, but not here, I don't know anyone better than a mason, they are the ones to spare the change when you ask. They are always friendly, at least the way we do it here. And they are extremely family oriented. Wives daughters sons, they all know about freemasonry, they may not know the ritual, but obviously you know less than they do, especially about the comment that you are forced to be a mason forever.

Furthermore, I heard of these things, they are called Fraternities or "Greeks" and they've invaded my college. Yeah they only let in cool people, and drink beer, but they won't talk about what they do during their meetings, and when you try to peep in on one, they toss you in the garbage. I think they are secretly trying to contact the Alien overlords that will come from Blarfie bop IX a planet around mickwack pop and they are coming to enslave all of us who don't have 3 greek letters secretly tatooed to the back of our ballsacks. I also think that the greek letters are different than the ones on they show on their houses, and the real greek letters spell Satan in a secret alien language, that for some reason is not the language of the blarfie bopians. (note the sarcasm, but more importantly, note the similarities between my allegations against Greek frats, and your allegations against Masonry)

I suggest you know a mason, as a friend (for do you view someone you hate fairly?) and you will see what Masonry is really. It is the last remenants of decency in this nation. Not even churches are decent anymore, priests are boinking boys, pastors robbing the poor to build giant houses to god. And let us not even discuss how religious the Itallian Maphia is. Masonry is about the only thing left on earth, where its members hold true to its oaths of morality.

Sincerely,
no signature

originally posted by SavonarolaWhen I speak of masonic archetypes I'm not speaking of puer aeternis or the older, unrelated male. I'm talking about mystery plays involving luciferian initiation rites; where one is taught about the bold stand Lucifer and his angels made against the tyrannical God Yahwey, and similar nonsense.

Oh and that has to be the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Never have I been involved in a play involving luciferian initiation rites, nor are we ever taught that Lucifer made a bold stand...for one primary reasons, Satan/Lucifer/the Devil just isn't there, he's a conception of mankind, the universe was constructed by a "god" and that's it, no satan, or angels battling to the death, at least not in masonry. If that's what you believe then go for it, no one is saying it is wrong. But masonry does not require you to believe in the existance of a satan/devil, so why is it you believe we all worship him?

Oh and you are correct, being a minority of one doesn't make you insane. But not knowing what you are talking about makes you look like a fool.

And this 32nd degree mason friend of yours? Why are you no longer friends? Did you disagree? Or perhaps, he coughed a human eyeball up on your rug once? There is a further reason why one gets all "fervent" about freemasonry, until you've sat and seen a lodge, for more than getting a diploma or some crap like that, all it is is a room. But when it's used it is perfect, the people there are your best friends, you all agree, it is something that doesn't exist in the outside world.

You want to know what it is that doesn't exist? It is trust...the trust and faith of your friends there goes farther than anyone else you shall ever know. For me it was even further than my own parents, it is so foriegn, that you keep waiting for the big laugh in your face and the boot out the door, but it never comes. It is something you'll probably never experience.

I'll admit to the pentagram, only because it has nothing to do with satan or magic like you think. But your Alestier Crowley statement is equally ignorant, for Crowley was never a mason. Masonry never did, never has and never will acknowledge the lodge he attended as being a masonic lodge, it was rather a French off shoot with a bunch of ideals that were not the ideals of masonry, and it was never constituated by the Grand Lodge. Their rituals even differ so there is no point in trying to link him to masonry.

You say every lodge that springs up has their own flavor, this is somewhat true, but in the end it is no different than the differences between texas and florida, or Nevada and California. Like the Greeks were all seperate city states, they all shared the same belief and culture.

Yeah it is funny the Catholic church has prevented members from joining masonry, because masonry has no such restrictions on them.

And finally, there is NO way on earth, that anyone can not follow the simple oaths Freemasonry asks of its members. The fact is you just don't know what the oath actually is and signifies. So it is understandable you'd believe it is by far more than it is.

Hmm to wrap up, never judge anything you haven't experienced when you NEED to experience it to know about it.

You shouldn't be so judgemental about such things. I'm most interested in hearing about your friend the "32". I think it is funny, everyone who knows a mason and has something to say about them, knows a "32".

Sincerely,
no signature

Freemason,

The Hell's Angels, the KKK, Hezbollah, and Al Qaida also give to charity - as do the mafia. When you're stealing and robbing from people, or prostituting their daughters, running drugs, or dealing in slaves (yes, it still goes on today, even in the U.S.) nothing blinds the eyes of the masses better than a few, well-publicised, good works. The masons only differ from these groups in that they - from my limited understanding of them - try to steal, rape, and enslave the people lawfully. Masons are the ones that own the banks, the businesses, the schools, and, being positioned where they are in society, they write the very laws that protect them. Even in the most liberal western nation, the laws of the land favour the entrepreneur over the worker and, in essence, the worker is the slave of the owner of any given establishment he might be employed with. Beyond that, the average citizen is a slave to a system designed for, and by, masons.

I've heard your argument before and I reject it. I reject it because I have heard enough rational, down-to-earth reports about what goes on within their society - and the other societies with whom they are connected. I see masonic symbols around me in society; things I wouldn't have recognized if I wasn't taught what to look for.

I also reject it because I am friends with a woman who was once a DeMolay and she instructed me on the sick, demented cult of the freemasons - and the abuses of her and others, still children, by others. The white robes, the noose, the memorisation of chapters of Judges...need I go on?

I am/was also a friend of a 32nd degree mason, a very interesting, intellectual of a man. He peaked my interest about masonry (before I met my x-DeMolay friend), but I had way too many bad premonitions about asking for membership. As polite and knowledgable as he was, it occured to me one day that he stroked my ego far too much to be a good instructor. He was too much like the Emperor and not enough like Yoda. Not long after this, I met the x-DeMolay, thank God.

You said,"Satan/Lucifer/the Devil just isn't there, he's a conception of mankind, the universe was constructed by a "god" and that's it, no satan, or angels battling to the death".

Well, "the greatest trick the devil ever played on the world was convinceing mankind that he doesn't exist." You think your intellect, or that of any of your fellow, materialistic 'brothers' is up to the task of decyphering spiritual truths when you deny the dark force behind all our woes? If masonry teaches this, it's admirable indeed of the RC church to forbid membership - it goes against the teachings of the prophets and Christ. You utter fools, the mysteries are not of the intellect and the devil is no conception, he is a reality, a fallen angel, the prosecutor of mankind. This is where you have gone astray.

You speak of trust with these 'brothers'; a trust you have never felt even for your parents. It might be better if you placed your trust in God, my friend, because He has created everything and can destroy anything. Every man has what can only be called a tentative reign on any part of God's universe at a given time. He is a finite creature that has the power to help those within his sphere. God, on the other hand, is infinate and has the power to do and undo, make and unmake. Better to serve the highest, Mr. Mason, than to serve a man.

"I'll admit to the pentagram, only because it has nothing to do with satan or magic like you think." Really? Are you sure that the pentagram (as you've been instructed) isn't something that it actually is? I can't imagine that a satanic recruiter tells his recruiters right off the bat what they will be doing. More likely, he will desensitise his future members with symbols of satanism, one by one, teaching bogus accounts of what they truly mean until the day they are ready for the truth. The pentagram is truly evil, whatever you've been taught. And it now resides on the flags of nations, the sides of warplanes, and the tops of Christmas trees.

God help us.

Sav -- you misread.

I didn't say the Masons and the KKK were related in any way (that's just plain silly.) I said that they were both secret societies and like a lot of other secret societies, they had secret oaths and secret meetings, etc.

As FM said, it's like the fraternities here. We had Phi Beta Kappa on the campus lo those many years ago, and there were all sorts of things the members could NOT tell us. Top secret and all that.